PCP refills

Rob@NinjaAir · Post by **Rob@NinjaAir** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:34 am

David Levene wrote:I thought we'd made that clear. Most top-end ISSF airguns have aadaptors that screw straight into 232bar or 300bar DIN valves. They are therefore much bigger than 1/8" BSP or NPT.

The gun's cylinder just screws directly on to that adaptor. No hose or quick-disconnect is needed in the vast majority of cases.

I'll send you a pm so we dont clutter up this TommyH's thread

TommyH · Post by **TommyH** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:48 pm

I freely admit that I am experiencing a learning curve, having yet to fill my PCP cylinders for the first time. I have been looking on ebay for a used tank and I'm faced with a choice of 'tested' or 'out of test' tanks. I would like to ask the question: am I ok to buy an out of test tank (which would be considerably cheaper than a fully tested tank). I'm concerned that a filling station would turn me away if they are not allowed to top up an out of test tank. Also, I would not want to damage my AP through using a 'sub standard' tank?

Thanks for the replies

TommyH

Silvershooter · Post by **Silvershooter** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:57 pm

A dive shop will not fill an out of test tank. If you have them test it (costs around £40 IIRC) and it fails they are obliged to not return the tank and have it destroyed.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:58 pm

Scuba shop will send it for hydro test. It will cost you $50.00 (few years ago).
If passes tank will get 5 years stamp of aproval, if not you are out of $50.00 and you gain nice gong.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:07 pm

TommyH

Speak to your local dive shop. They usually have second-hand cylinders for sale and will normally test, stamp and fill them before sale.

They will also be able to change the valve for one with a gauge.

Remember, unless you want to use additional adaptors you want a 232bar DIN valve.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:57 pm

I've found that some dive shops don't care if your tank is in date and will fill it if they know it is for airgun and not diving.

left360 · Post by **left360** » Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:44 pm

I went to a local dive shop and was given a lead to a used 100 cu ft, 3400 psi tank, bought the appropriate adaptor, had the "not for diving use" sticker put on it, had it "Hydro tested" and filled for $165 total investment.

A $6.58 refill lasts a bit more than 10,000 air pistol shots.

It did help that the shop owner had dealt with at least one other airgun shooter (who recommended the shop to me) so she knew what I was looking for...

Steve

TommyH · Post by **TommyH** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:16 am

Many thanks for your replies, I think I'll pay the extra and go for a tested tank.

TommyH

FrankD · Post by **FrankD** » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:12 am

Dear shooting friends,

at this time all German producers give only a validity time of 10 years for their air cylinders. Steel cylinders can retested after this time, but not so the aluminum cylinders. Here in Germany shooters are not allowed to use cylinders behind her validity date in any competition. This is also true for all ISSF competitions.

I now, there is a story behind this if it comes to this cylinders and the accidents with them but this are at this time the valid rules.

Regards from Germany

Frank

robf · Post by **robf** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:04 am

TommyH wrote:If you do go for a Scuba tank then I would advise getting one with a 232bar DIN valve, and preferably one with a gauge.

Thanks David, you've just helped a puzzled soul

TommyH

Actually, go for a 300 bar tank, a 12L is the largest. With your fill threshold likely to be 200 bar, you'll be looking for a refill after more time after with a 12L 300 bar than a 15L 232. You may even find a smaller 7L 300 bar may suffice.

I've compliled a list of UK fillers here, not meant to be all encompassing, but it may help. If anyone wishes to add, just PM me.

http://goo.gl/maps/zGZ7R

You want one with a surface use only valve as some shops are seeing bottles that can be used in water liable for a test every 2 years as opposed to 5 for surface only.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:48 am

robf wrote: Actually, go for a 300 bar tank, a 12L is the largest. With your fill threshold likely to be 200 bar, you'll be looking for a refill after more time after with a 12L 300 bar than a 15L 232. You may even find a smaller 7L 300 bar may suffice.

The reason I suggested a 232 bar valve is that many top end pistols come with fill adaptors that won't seat in a 300 bar valve.

You can buy a 300 male to 232 female adaptor but that's just extra hassle.

TommyH · Post by **TommyH** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:18 am

Robf

Thanks for the list, I've pinpointed an outlet just a few miles from where I live.

I've bid on ebay for a 12L 232 bar tank, bidding is over on Friday - its mine, I want it!!!

TommyH

robf · Post by **robf** » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:42 am

David Levene wrote:Rob, my bad. I should have made it clear that I wass responding to Tommy.

With a 15 litre tank I don't think many ISSF shooters would need to get a refill more than once every 12-18 months.

My own main tank is a 15 litre with a 232 bar DIN valve with a pressure gauge.

Leaving that at home and making sure my 2 Morini cylinders are always full then I've always got at least 3 matches worth of air with me.

In the UK then any competition with more than 3 matches will certainly have air available.

No worries David. And it wasnt meant as a slight on your advice. It's just that if buying then a 12L 300 is worth considering over a 15L 232 for someone not aware.

For the sub aqua boys the debate is only about size because 15L x 230 bar is 3480 Bar Litre and a 12L x 300bar is 3600 Bar Litre. For us airgunners though the fill pressure most of us want is 200 bar, which means the 232 has 15L x 32 bar = 480 Bar Litre to use before a fill is desired, yet the 12L 300 bar has 12 x 100 or 1200 Bar Litre to use of air before a refill is sought. So you'd get 2-3 x as many fills from the smaller yet higher pressure cylinder as opposed to the larger yet lower pressure.

So that's why it's worth considering a smaller but higher pressure cylinder which may give more cost options. On the other side, as people move to 300's there may be some cheaper 232's around, which like you say, cover use quite well.

I guess coming from an FT environment where we burn more air (due to the higher energies we shoot at), it's something I'm more aware of. We tend to go through about 3x as much despite only spitting them out 2x the energy.

robf · Post by **robf** » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:43 am

TommyH wrote:Robf

Thanks for the list, I've pinpointed an outlet just a few miles from where I live.

I've bid on ebay for a 12L 232 bar tank, bidding is over on Friday - its mine, I want it!!!

TommyH

No worries. If it doesn't work out then feel free to pop into the forum and place a wanted ad up. They do come up for sale now and then.

robf · Post by **robf** » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:06 am

Rob@NinjaAir wrote:
jr wrote: On a separate note, my son has one of the Ninja carbon fiber tanks; it's clearly very well made, is very light, and is portable in a way that the full-size scuba tank is not. I don't know that the average ISSF shooter would benefit from this smaller tank, but it would be a great way to carry around a few thousand shots worth of air...
Great to hear your son uses one of our systems already. Since we manufacture our own regulators, we take great pride in building quality and consistent products. With our 3000psi output regulators, it just provides a much safer way to fill when fill cylinders rated to hold 3000psi (200bar)

If you would like to see how many shots one might expect off of this type of fill station, click this link: http://www.calc.sikes.us/2/index.php

Cubic foot (CF) rating of your air tank (from chart below): 16.2 (that is the cubic foot rating of our 90cubic inch cylinder)
PSI pressure rating of your tank: 4500
Actual PSI in your tank: 4500
CC of your gun's tank: (you will need to input the volume of air in cc that your air cylinder on your gun holds)
Fill the gun to this PSI: 3000 (or fill to the pressure you desire, up to 3000psi max on our regulator)
Fill the gun when it gets down to this PSI: enter the pressure you start refilling at

In the states, the guys are paying upwards of $600-$700 for a carbon fiber cylinder but as you stated, they are not easily transportable. With our system, you can remove the regulator to let TSA or Customs inspect inside the cylinder and fly with it to matches. Hand-tighten the regulator back on and you will be able to use it with no problems as long as there is no gap between the bottom of the regulator and top of the neck of the cylinder. Now you have a portable filling device that weighs less than 5 lbs and will give you multiple fills.

The biggest problem is making sure you have a place that is local where you can get fills up to 4500psi to take advantage of that higher pressure.

When you guys say each gun comes with its own specific adapter, depending on the manufacturer, if the adapters have a male or female 1/8" BSPP or male or female 1/8" NPT thread, you should be able to easily attach a quick disconnect coupler. This would allow you to attach something like a micro bore hose to quickly and easily fill. I'll have to check on these adapters more to see what you guys are working with if its not male or female BSPP or NPT threads.

Thanks for the input guys. This info helps me out a lot.

Im not sure what the requirement for the reg is...

If you're filling 200 from a 300 bar, then you really need to be careless to let the tap open for an over fill. Or you can simply get a restrictor fitted in the neck of the cylinder to slow down the fill rate considerably. I picked up a 2nd hand 3L with one fitted and it takes about a minute to go from 100 to 200 bar on quite a small gun cylinder.
In any case, rifle cylinders are rated well over their standard working pressure, so you can just bleed off with the manufacturer's bleed valve.

Within reason a non reg gun isn't going to notice the difference between a few bar on fills, and if it does then it's hardly the choice for target shooting. To be honest though, even regged guns deserve a bit of testing for consistency with fill pressure because many have a curve to them... but then with 10m you would find it hard to notice, and you'd gain more with a little tuning here and there anyway, not that it matters at 10 much either unless you're hitting 59 out of the 60. The point being is that there's more variations to a gun than fill pressure usually, and even then at 10m, it's extremely hard to notice (POI shift for 10fps change at 10m is...?), and not people's biggest problem. Even with consistent pressure there are bigger problems with most 10m rifles, but again their effect is marginal.

300 bar and 232 are the same thread, but the depth of the thread is deeper on a 300 to prevent a 232 sealing (to avoid over pressure worries)... some use an insert or you you can just get a whip line made up as suggested. 'We' tend to just rip the gauge off the rifle bottle and fit a quick fill. Of course the ISSF would still pass them because all they care about is stamps and numbers, and can't think beyond off-the-shelf. But if you didn't want to do that you could just get a quickfill and adapter and then everyone can share.

Over here, 300 bar fills are quite easy to find. And so are the adapters... http://www.bestfittings.co.uk/