Remember quality training is worth doing. Throwing lead down the range is at best exercise, at worst re-enforces bad habits. Quality not quantity. Basics, as you know, are clear site picture, smooth triggering while maintaining site picture, and follow through while maintaining site picture. The shot release just happens while you are looking at the sites - it is not waiting for the perfect site picture and then pulling the trigger. It all blends into one. Try to forget scores and percentages, try to shoot blank cards - just put shot after shot into blank paper - when you get control of sites and trigger the target is irrelevant.
And watch Laguna Seca GP later today - bit more exciting than free pistol.
McT
I do shoot targets backwards for grouping practice.
As for the GP, I have promised my buddy (4th in Moto2) that until he made it to the top MotoGP class, I will not attend and see him. Part of it is my medical condition, part of it is a promise. I hope you find a good picnic spot around the corkscrew. If you ever manage to have a track day make sure you book a date at Thunderhill in North Cal, the cyclone is a mini corkscrew and is one of my favorite corners to do. Anyway, totally off topic.
conradin wrote:
I do shoot targets backwards for grouping practice.
No.
As there is no blurred target to serve as a reference, there is no point in analysing the group size.
This exercise is purely to concentrate on your sights, without the distraction of aligning them with the black.
It's purpose is to make it easier to see if the sights are aligned, if they move during the release of the shot, and what do you do in the follow through. Much like dry fire at a blank wall.
conradin wrote:
I do shoot targets backwards for grouping practice.
This exercise is purely to concentrate on your sights, without the distraction of aligning them with the black.
It's purpose is to make it easier to see if the sights are aligned, if they move during the release of the shot, and what do you do in the follow through. Much like dry fire at a blank wall.
Hope this helps
Thank you. Another misunderstanding I had with the person who initially taught me. Now this makes sense.
Funny thing about shooting on the backs of targets and focusing on sight alignment. I often shoot the smallest groups that way, and right in the middle of the target. I actually asked an official once if it might be allowable to shoot a match on the target backs. Semi-seriously. Just got a grunted laugh, but I suspect my scores might go up 1 or 2% that way. Being freed from any distraction of the black circle certainly helps with focus on the sights. I'm not convinced it helps a lot with my scored shooting though, as I'm a centre-aim guy. I've tried, given it more than a year of sub-6 at various depths, but I just can't stand not aiming at what I'm shooting at. It seems likely that this is residue from my childhood pellet rifle shooting. For years I plinked and hunted with a break-barrel .22" and rarely missed at any range out to 25 metres. Never aimed at anything but the centre of my targets.
Perhaps I could break the habit with years of effort on sub-6, but then last year I found out one of the top two shooters in our club (ranked 3rd or 4th in Canada in AP, ranked quite well in other pistol disciplines as well as he shoots pretty much all firearms) also aims on centre. He was startled to hear that I had any concerns about this being unusual. Said all sorts of shooters aim on centre. So aiming on white might be good for learning sight alignment/trigger control, but it doesn't transfer as well to centre aiming, I think.
How things differ. I like to aim at the lower edge of the target. Good indicator there of where I am, and no irritating black thingy disturbing my sight picture (except on the rapid fire target, and there, I'm the only one on the block who actually has contrast :-)
Gerard wrote:I actually asked an official once if it might be allowable to shoot a match on the target backs. Semi-seriously. Just got a grunted laugh, but I suspect my scores might go up 1 or 2% that way.
I did it once. Without asking first. Got DQed! I recovered my shot targets and scored them myself out of interest. My score was in the range that I was shooting in those days.
The rule the jury quoted to DQ me was the target spec one that says the aiming mark must be visible from the firing point (or words to that effect).
Gerard wrote:I actually asked an official once if it might be allowable to shoot a match on the target backs. Semi-seriously. Just got a grunted laugh, but I suspect my scores might go up 1 or 2% that way.
I did it once. Without asking first. Got DQed! I recovered my shot targets and scored them myself out of interest. My score was in the range that I was shooting in those days.
The rule the jury quoted to DQ me was the target spec one that says the aiming mark must be visible from the firing point (or words to that effect).
Were you DSQ? I thought you were given a score of zero.
I am only a 520's FP shooter but I will give you my opinion. Remember that Tiger Wood's coaches can't beat him.
Cross firing and vision: Get an clip on Gehmann iris. It will sharpen your vision all around and add depth of field to your sight picture so that both sights are in sharp focus. It will also narrow your field of view so that once you line up on your numbered target, it makes it much harder to cross fire. If may want to block your other eye. Cross firing should not be the fault of the grips.
Hold: Most every shooter I see that misses the target does it my jerking the trigger or has some kind of involuntary yip when they "think" the gun will fire. Easy question, can you hold the sight picture on the target? If the answer is "yes" all you have to do is press the trigger to a surprise break and accept that the score will be a random ring within your hold. If you can't hold within the scoring rings, you will have to learn to "lead" your wobble and press the trigger as you are going toward the center, holding that pressure when you are going away from the center, and pressing again when you are heading to center until you run out or air in your lungs/brain and you abort the shot, or until the shot breaks.
I, too, race motorcycles (250GP). As I am getting older, I am racing less and shooting more. One of the hardest things for me to deal with is that, since I am new to FP as well, I am not yet competitive. When I race, I am very competitive and always believe that I can win. With shooting, I need to remind myself that I am only here for me and to have fun and maybe grab a beer at the end of the match with my buddies, just like with racing. I try to "channel" the concentration that I have with my racing and use it with my shooting. Of course, that doesn't really work. When you get that red mist on the track and lose concentration and only focus on winning, well... bad things happen like a massive high-side and I've had my share. The last few years I have been racing 125 and beating most of the 250s, but I want to beat them all and that's ridiculous. So, I just bought a 250 to be on even ground again. Anyway, when you lose concentration while shooting, you're not likely to get shot or crash or whatever, just a crappy shot. Somehow, 165mph at turn 8 at Willow Springs keeps your attention much better than standing there with your pistol aimed down the line. I have tried to focus and slow down the world, like when racing, and I tune everything out and I find my shots are better. It's easy to do tons of laps, or dry fires or even live fires, but it might be better to shoot less and focus more. It's truly a case of quality over quantity.
joel wrote: It's easy to do tons of laps, or dry fires or even live fires, but it might be better to shoot less and focus more. It's truly a case of quality over quantity.
joel wrote: It's easy to do tons of laps, or dry fires or even live fires, but it might be better to shoot less and focus more. It's truly a case of quality over quantity.
This is why I locked myself into a motel room for at least 24 hours before P1, shows up with an hour to go, meditate, before hoping on the machine.
What did I do in the motel? Meditate and HARD MEMORIZATION of every single spot of the track, work on every single possible scenario. Youtube was helpful during those days when someone actually posted "doing one lap in..." After between P1 and P2 I have time to observe every single other machine and what they were doing with it, so on Saturday night I can work on a revised scenario.
There is no "doing tons of laps". We got 10 minutes of practice time. You will be lucky to get 5 laps. That's 10 laps on Saturday, 3 laps for warmups, and 12 to 15 laps for playtime.
When I was in LV Speedway, I NEVER did venture out of the motel room, and intentionally booked a motel that is not around the fun part of the town. I did not come out of the motel room AFTER I finished analyzing the race the early evening on Sunday, then I had my first proper "Las Vegas" meal. Machine is safe there, no body will steal it. Also well prepared machine means you never need to work on it other than very minor adjustment. Before that I went at least a week of a special diet.
Its quality, preparation, etc. quantity is good ONLY if the set up is right.
I came across your post here and thought I should respond since I was the one who sold you the LP300 pistol last year. Yes, I also tried to get you started shooting on a good foot. Since you mentioed the difficulties you have encountered in the past year, I like to clarify some of the issues you have been experiencing as a new shooter/competitor.
IIRC, I spent several hours with you over the course of a few months with the goal of showing you how to shoot. Some of the things we discussed, practiced, and worked on was sight picture, grip, stance, etc., Yes, I did tell you not to adjust the sights initially. I felt this wasn't necessary as we were firing on the reverse side of a B40 target. As another poster mentioned, I wanted you to become familiar with the correct sight picture as shown on the club's poster and on a modified target I gave you. The goal was to have you become accustomed to focusing on the correct sight picture. We also talked about dry-fire and live fire. You know I am a firm believer in dry-fire as a training aid. We talked about quality over quantity and I stressed you should work on firing a few quality shots over just throwing lead down range. We discussed how quickly bad habits can develop if we're not careful. In the beginning, you were experiencing issues with heeling, flinching, and follow-through. This is why I had you work on sight picture, trigger control, and firing a few good shots.
BTW, how is your shooting journal coming along? And you shot plan developing? You have been working on both this past year, right?
I am sorry you did not enjoy your first match. I tried to ensure you shot next to me so that I could help make your first match enjoyable. As for score, I told you then than the only person you are shooting against is yourself. None of the other competitors cares about your scores. More than anything, I had hoped to introduce you so several local competitors and shooters. At that time, you did not have a home club, a practice facility, or know of other shooters in the sport. My intent was to have you meet people who shared your passion for AP and let you know of other clubs in the SF bay area. it was not to highlight your shooting abilities at that time.
You asked about coaching and coaches and I gave your a few local leads to follow up on. Did you look into any of them? Since you mentioned philosophical differences, we do have a difference of opinion here. You remember when we first met, i asked you what your long term goals are. You mentioned you wanted to compete at the national or world level. I told you I was not the person who could help you get there. You need someone with more knowledge, resources, experience, and ability than I have. Philosophically, we are different. I see shooting as an avocation, not a vocation. Like you, I am a struggling marksman. I experience match jitters, drop shots at times, and may never be a HM shooter -- but I have fun shooting, competing, and relaoding. I hoped to instill the same sense in you and add another shooter to the firing line.
I am glad to hear you doing better health-wise these days. I hope to heck you are enjoying the shooting sports and learning more every day and I look forward to seeing you at the local matches.
Thank you for you finally understanding my disability. You probably never realize how bad my shake and the lower part of my body is. Finally I told my misses and she uses various items to wrap me around my forearm, wrist and arm, and I still shake like mad. I can stop the shake by forcing it, but that means after 30 shots I am dead tired and can no longer suppress the the twitching and the shaking. I find shooting posture like Zlatic best suit me because it minimize the shaking, problem is I will have to deal with a super long sight radius. If you recall the lat time, my rear sight was extended to as back as possible. Of course it does not change anything since I was STILL shooting blind.
There is no doubt a misunderstanding, I stated my goal early one and if you recall around half a year ago my goal has changed and only want to go to state level, and national if I am lucky with health permits. I repeatedly told you the goal change. I am not sure if you know how bad my health is, that I can only take a plane trip with a wheelchair. I hate having a blue tag. Most of all, I hate receiving SSDI . I can't drive to Santa Clara, it is too far away, I may have an epilepsy type of episode anytime (and that is also the least of my health concern). One hour can give me warning to STOP DRIVING.
I think it is a misunderstanding that I never managed to see the sight picture. When I finally see it as you describe it I was in an awkward position. As for shooting target at the back, there was no point when I was shooting blind. I cannot see the sights. I never did break 147 in all tournament and home. I was shooting blind.
Raoul and John B. saved me. I can now see the sight, I got new blades, I adjust sight pictures, I click the knobs. I find what I think is the right way to pull the trigger, In the space of two months I jump from averaging .150 to .720, and there is no stopping of the increasing of the score until my shaking prevents me from doing further. Also shooting in the back may not help either if I shake. I can always abandon shot for wobble, but I cannot stop and wait for 45 minutes for the shaking to be tolerable and then shoot again.
I did finally shoot the back until I could see a sight picture 3 months ago. But I don't see the reason to do it since I paint my front sight so that the Bull and the ring can never distract me. Hence I can concentrate on shooting a particular area to check the groupings, for example 2 at 11 o'clock.
My grouping is now 7 centering the Bull, with most shots ended up either 8 or 9, but the shaking means that 1/4 of a 60 shots match has problems: they all lined up between 8 to 10 o'clock. at 2 to 5. I managed to force myself to prevent shooting 1 and 0., It is VERY tiring.
A better communication would have been better so I did not waste close to 9 months for developing strange posture to get sight picture, etc. Now my goal is to find a coach that point out which bad habits I still have so I can unlearn it. I pretty much figure out the right way to shoot, but the bad habits are there. I try the hardest to ignore it, but muscle memory prevents that from not happening. For example I shoot and pull the trigger the moment it points to the target, that is because I know instead of 4 seconds, I have maybe 2 seconds maximum to do it before the shaking start. It was so quick that the wobble never occurred as a factor.. In stead of the 4-7 seconds window, I have a 2 -4 second window. Naturally I don't have time to exhale.
You never did give me any coaches lead, except one person in SoCal., Again it was a misunderstanding since I think you never know how bad my health is. There is a reason why I would like to join your club. I simply cannot travel. At the time when I mentioned my health, you pointed out that you were a veteran and received benefits, perhaps I wrongly consider your demeanor as "You don't look sick". I thought (actually my misses thought) you insulted me. You probably have no idea my body was on fire from Fibromyalgia that day, and that is the LEAST illness with which that I was concerned. Someone like me who raced motorcycle with broken wrist WITHOUT pain killers at 185 mph don't usually complain. So when I said I have disability, it was not an excuse. I definitely have similar shake then one of your elder student. I just forced myself to not shake. I was completely exhausted afterward, after 30 shots.
You only gave me two lessons in total, since I took pictures of them. The whole coaching sessions were wasted due to misunderstanding since I was shooting blind. I think things would have been so much different if you took the pistol, couch a LITTLE bit down to match my height and see the picture. I calibrate my misses LP1CP pretending to be her, she does good.
Thanks for introducing me to the sport, as I wrote, I always have gratitude about this in my life. I do think the interpretation of competitiveness is wrong, because if you are not competitive, even if you shoot alone in the garage, there will be little motivation.
Ironically I don't know that many shooters in the Bay Area, I have tons of World Cup and Olympic friends, mostly from Eastern Europe. Peter Sidi and I developed a special rapport. even though he is a rifle person. Most of the pistol tips, if I ask, will be from Munkh, Jelena A., and Maria G. I don't bond with male pistol shooters with the exception of Ragnar and Uwe Potteck. The rifle Olympians help me a lot, such as how to "feel" a pellet. Now my footwork is from Potteck, posture from Zlatic, but that does not mean they are perfect because I know somewhere my body posture carries some bad habits and I don't know why.
I do keep a journal, but it is on line and only I can see it. Instead of a blow by blow description, I described the entire session, such as what happened between shot 1-25, and then shot 22 has a problem shot 27 I shot within 1 second of aiming etc.
I do dry fire. A lot, sometimes 50 to 1. But nowadays sometimes I shot as much as a tin and a half, so the need is less. Dry fire requires me to get out of bed and that means that I rather not do it and save my energy for my nightly practice, You can't dry fire if you are on medication any way. IF i Do dry fire I actually use the FWb65 with recoil lock. So it serves as weight training. (cleaning pellets is needed for "dry fire" for the 65). Follow through I understand, problem is I SHAKE after shooting.That little shake change the direction of the pellet while it is still inside the barrel. The problem of my shake is horizontal. Hence it ends up at 2 ring at 9 o'clock. Sometimes I wish I can shoot two handed. One to hold the pistol, the other to forcibly grab hold of the pistol holding arm so it won't move.
I don't doubt your sincerity, I do stress that there is a major miscommunication. Maybe I should have insist on stressing the problem of my sight, but I have never shoot a firearm before in my life so I think that is normal. And I generally do not question an "elder" like you. I listen, and ask questions. I could not give you any opinion since I have no experience in firearm.
My priority is to get someone being objective to make sure all my bad habits are gone, then re-adjust the sight picture again. BTW, I record every single click on my Steyr of I know exactly how many clinks will mean.
As I told you repeatedly my true love is FP. In fact, even though I shoot better in My Morini, I prefer the mechanical Toz-35 East German Clone.
Again,. thanks for getting me started.
Last edited by conradin on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
There is a disabled shooters section on this forum. You might get some good first-hand responses from those who have been there and done that. I've assisted with disabled shooting matches and training on a limited basis in the past. The vast majority of the participants had a great time and some were more disabled than you. You need to set realistic goals to prevent frustration. Being competitive on the national or international level doesn't seem realistic at this point, but it can still be a dream. This sport is very difficult and most folks take years to master it. When you quit worrying about scores and start having fun, you may be surprised as what follows.
Misny wrote:There is a disabled shooters section on this forum. You might get some good first-hand responses from those who have been there and done that. I've assisted with disabled shooting matches and training on a limited basis in the past. The vast majority of the participants had a great time and some were more disabled than you. You need to set realistic goals to prevent frustration. Being competitive on the national or international level doesn't seem realistic at this point, but it can still be a dream. This sport is very difficult and most folks take years to master it. When you quit worrying about scores and start having fun, you may be surprised as what follows.
Thank you Misny. I DID post there once and was directed to the right place to search for answers. If you want to really know my disability you can ask me privately, I don't use that as an excuse, but I do need to let anyone who teaches me know my limit, or any range master. I come to accept the fact that no matter how hard I try, maybe my illness will prevent me from achieving higher scores or better groups. I have well accepted the fact that I will be happy at state level. I am not eligible for Para.
If you read carefully, I did enjoy shooting, I am obsessed about FP. I love the fun part, and don't even care how I shoot. AP is a way to improve my shooting, so at least I won't cross fire to someone else' target while shooting my East German Toz clone. Nothing feels better than shooting the 1908 Olympic winner in FP at 50 yards (the official distance at that particular Olympics), even though when I pick up the target later it does not have a single bullet hole on it.
I saw a person unable to compete in motorcycle racing. I racked my brain trying to find a sport that he could get into within the limitations of his physical disability.
Conradin and I sadly/ironically/however you'd like to see it share several illnesses one of which being fibromyalgia and nerve issues resulting in horrible shaking.
I casually brought up how I hate most sports but I'll find myself glued to the shooting competition coverage from the Olympics.
The rest of this road has been one of support, guidance, and comradery. Chronic Illness of any kind can lead to dangerous mental avenues where one finds no hope, utter frustration and oblivion. One feels there is no purpose to life. In another life we were BOTH workaholic professionals, social butterflies and outgoing.
The 4 walls of a room in comparison to that is a living Purgatory.
We have a Discipline, we have our friendship.
Make of that what you will, envy if you must...this is how we attempt to go beyond mere Survival.
Peace be with you all.
Desdemona MEV Gare-Frantisek
Range Safety Coordinator/Instructor Oakland Pink Pistols
USAS #1035180
