Out of curiosity how come we never heard of people using revolvers form CFP anymore? Consider the World Record is set by Mikhail Nestruyev with a Toz revolver? Are people that much hooked on semi-automatic, or the convenience to change caliber of the same pistol? Or is it semi-automatic has a decisive advantage over revolvers?
I am a revolver person, and CFP has a long history of revolver winning streaks. I just don't know is there any competitive revolver out there nowadays to go against the Pardini, the Benelli, the Morini, and all those .22lr conversion into .32 or .38.
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In 1981, while trying for a competitive edge in centre fire, I changed from my S&W Mod 14 (K-38) to a Toz-36 (7.62x38R or 7.62 Nagant) - a 32 cal. gas seal revolver designed by Efim Khaidurov. Always shot in the 280's for precision but never mastered 290+ for duelling (rapid fire stage) mainly because of the crisp trigger. Maybe someone will correct me here but, as I remember, I could not adjust the trigger to achieve a"roll-off" action without mechanical work on the sear. What was interesting is that Khaidurov, as a coach, advocated the use of a roll-off trigger action. People would modify these revolvers by shortening the barrel to allow the fitting of a grip that would give more support for the hand. A lot of these were sold in Australia prior to the introduction of the Toz-49 which used a shortened case of the same calibre.
I would have like to have tried the S&W Mod 16 (K-32) in 32 S&W Long but they were rare. Now they are not only rare but commanding high prices. I did own a Taurus 32 S&W Long revolver for a little while but sold it before I was able to evaluate it. Manurhin revolvers in 32 S&W Long were also popular and well made but were expensive.
When in Italy in 1982, I visited the FAS factory and tried the new FAS CF603 (Serial # 0002). I bought one on my return to Australia and have been hooked on it ever since.
Just today, I finally gave in and adjusted the trigger weight to just over 1000g after having continued to use it with the old 1360g setting. Actually, I was concerned that I would upset the feel of the trigger but I'm happy with the change - even reduced the 3-stages to 2 stages. Just got to try it with real live ammo to make sure it works OK and that we are still friends!
This is a long way around saying that the reasons for using autos in the CF match are that the triggers are much more adjustable than on revolvers, the grip position has much more flexibility and is set higher to the bore axis with more "rake" and there is no break in concentration between shots in the rapid fire stage (ie having to cock the hammer).
I have no doubt that all specialist target autos and revolvers have 10x-ring accuracy with the correct load in a machine rest. It is just a matter of what each shooter prefers.
I would have like to have tried the S&W Mod 16 (K-32) in 32 S&W Long but they were rare. Now they are not only rare but commanding high prices. I did own a Taurus 32 S&W Long revolver for a little while but sold it before I was able to evaluate it. Manurhin revolvers in 32 S&W Long were also popular and well made but were expensive.
When in Italy in 1982, I visited the FAS factory and tried the new FAS CF603 (Serial # 0002). I bought one on my return to Australia and have been hooked on it ever since.
Just today, I finally gave in and adjusted the trigger weight to just over 1000g after having continued to use it with the old 1360g setting. Actually, I was concerned that I would upset the feel of the trigger but I'm happy with the change - even reduced the 3-stages to 2 stages. Just got to try it with real live ammo to make sure it works OK and that we are still friends!
This is a long way around saying that the reasons for using autos in the CF match are that the triggers are much more adjustable than on revolvers, the grip position has much more flexibility and is set higher to the bore axis with more "rake" and there is no break in concentration between shots in the rapid fire stage (ie having to cock the hammer).
I have no doubt that all specialist target autos and revolvers have 10x-ring accuracy with the correct load in a machine rest. It is just a matter of what each shooter prefers.
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David Levene
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A fine choice. I never found any other gun, semi-auto or revolver, that gave you such confidence when waiting at the ready position with only the weight of the last stage still to go.jliston48 wrote:When in Italy in 1982, I visited the FAS factory and tried the new FAS CF603 (Serial # 0002). I bought one on my return to Australia and have been hooked on it ever since.
They needed a bit more care and attention than some other guns, but they were worth it.
How can I obtain a Toz-49 here in the US, and does that mean I need a special reloading for the cartridges? I have heard that the cartridges is a rare caliber.
Also Tosrten Ullman used an S&W K-38 to win the gold medal and the world record for it. I wonder if that model still exists and is it still competitive.
Also Tosrten Ullman used an S&W K-38 to win the gold medal and the world record for it. I wonder if that model still exists and is it still competitive.
The K-38 (Model 14/15) has been discontinued, but there should be plenty available on the used market. My dad had a matching set of a K-38 and the K-22. The K-22 is still made.
I'm not sure what the difference was between the Model 14 and the Model 15. There were also a couple of revisions of the 14 made. I think the earliest ones were "5 screw"s, which tends to push the prices way up.
A quick check on Gunbroker shows about 15 K-38's for sale. Prices vary from ~ $350 to almost $1500 for a 5-screw version.
I'm not sure what the difference was between the Model 14 and the Model 15. There were also a couple of revisions of the 14 made. I think the earliest ones were "5 screw"s, which tends to push the prices way up.
A quick check on Gunbroker shows about 15 K-38's for sale. Prices vary from ~ $350 to almost $1500 for a 5-screw version.
I think the difference is the barrel length. K-38 Heavy or Target Masterpiece turned into K-14, while K-38 Combat Masterpiece turned into K-15. Since Ullman won with the K-38 and broke the record around 54, that must mean he owned a K-38 Target Masterpiece. I just wonder if the 14 still relevant and competitive in either Bullseye or CFP.
Obviously the biggest concern is the rapid fire stage, and also the ability to shoot single action.
The K-15 has a short barrel (4") by default; the K-14 has various barrel lengths. I do not know the barrel length of Ullman's K-38, nor do I know what is the popular length NRA Bulls-eye competitor chose.
Obviously the biggest concern is the rapid fire stage, and also the ability to shoot single action.
The K-15 has a short barrel (4") by default; the K-14 has various barrel lengths. I do not know the barrel length of Ullman's K-38, nor do I know what is the popular length NRA Bulls-eye competitor chose.
I don't believe that there any any TOZ 49s in the US, so you will have to import one yourself. Frankonia in Germany has a nice second hand one for sale. 7.62 Nagant Reloading dies are available from RCBS, and also from Sim plex in Australia ( the best 7.62 Nagant dies ). TOZ 49 brass ( 7.62 Nagant Short ) is also made here in Australia by Bertram Brass....conradin wrote:How can I obtain a Toz-49 here in the US, and does that mean I need a special reloading for the cartridges? I have heard that the cartridges is a rare caliber.
I've seen Russians actually shoot revolvers at CISM competitions several times in the last 10 years, but they are almost the only ones (I can remember). No idea how they adjusted the triggers. I never got the hang of the revolver trigger - sadly, cause I'd have loved to shoot my Manurhin more, that is a machine that works with everything, shoots well with almost everything, and does it all day long. Perhaps with a rollover...
A strange challenge, indeed!j-team wrote:I challenge you to show us the numbers of .38 revolvers used in Continental and World Champs these days.
Yes, technology has moved on and top competitive shooters are after that fine edge in competition that will deliver them a top performance.
My K-38 shoots 10x-ring groups in a machine rest, probably at least as good as today's competitive centre fire pistols.
I have no doubt that a K-38 or other good quality 38 cal revolver in the hands of a world-class shooter would produce excellent results (by the standards of us mere mortals). They are not used because there are pistols with better handling characteristics (either real or imagined) being used by the top shooters.
There are no 38 Spl autos being used (Sig P240, S&W Mod 52, etc) at the top level too. One factor has to relate to recoil in comparison to the 32 autos - about 50% more muzzle energy from 38 Spl wadcutter target ammo over the 32 S&W Long wadcutter target ammo.
In terms of value/performance for money spent, I would strongly advocate a beginning shooter starting with a good, second hand 38/357 revolver and would chastise anyone who advises against choosing such a firearm on the basis that shooters at world champs or Olympics don't use them.
Not sure where you'd find one, the cartridge is odd - 7.62x26 - your best bet is get a Simplex resizing die (not carbide) and use 0.32S+WL dies for the rest of the setup, plus a .38 super sheel plate, I think. I've heard people have used .30 carbine resizing dies successfuly.conradin wrote:How can I obtain a Toz-49 here in the US, and does that mean I need a special reloading for the cartridges? I have heard that the cartridges is a rare caliber.
Also Tosrten Ullman used an S&W K-38 to win the gold medal and the world record for it. I wonder if that model still exists and is it still competitive.
Brass can be obtained via Bertram Brass, use ~0.311-0.312 bullets and 32S+WL load data.
With enough practice a clean-break trigger is OK, I prefer it now.
Don't worry about it, many Model 16s were terribly made and the .32 H+R magnum chamber made life very difficult.jliston48 wrote:I would have like to have tried the S&W Mod 16 (K-32) in 32 S&W Long but they were rare. Now they are not only rare but commanding high prices. I did own a Taurus 32 S&W Long revolver for a little while but sold it before I was able to evaluate it. Manurhin revolvers in 32 S&W Long were also popular and well made but were expensive.