I've been fighting mostly the same problems in prone for at least 2 years and I think I've isolated the source but I don't know how to fix it. I often shoot 60 shots prone around 585-590p but the feeling isn't perfect and my hold trace is to big and the recoil isn't perfect mostly because of problems in relaxing the right shoulder I think.
The feeling I get is when I relax my right shoulder in position it wants to push my left lower arm to the left and the result of this is after every time I reload I need to make adjustments in my position because my NPA is sligthly left of the center of the target.
I also get the feeling that my left arm and hand pulls the rifle out of my shoulder. I've tried to shorten the sling, moving handstop further away, make the stock longer and shorter but nothing have helped me.
I've been thinking that maybe my left elbow is to far away from my body but I don't know if a position that is to low can give problems like this.
Solving problems in prone
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
I continue to answer my own questions.
I moved my left elbow 2-3cm closer to my body and that raised my position a little. I moved the sling upwards on my upper arm around 2cm but that may be to much because now I see more pulse. I tightened the sling 2 notches, this can also be the source of the visible pulse.
Now the position feels more stable and the feeling that the left arm pulls the rifle out of the shoulder is gone. NPA still wants to be to the left sometimes.
I will be experimenting with a new routine for reloading and putting my right elbow back in place. I will insert the cartridge in the chamber, make sure the buttplate is in the right spot in the shoulder, grasp the pistol grip, put cheek on cheekpiece to lock the position and then just lowering the right elbow to the mat.
The thing I do think of is how much of the NPA consistency is adjusting the rifle, sling and my body and how much of it is just practice. I've had people watching where I put my right elbow and I'm pretty consistent in that part.
The goal that I have with my prone position is that I want a position and technique that allows me to shot a 60 shot match indoors in about 30 minutes, allows me to completely relax, have perfect recoil that comes back to where I was aiming prior to the shot and have a consistent feeling and NPA. When this is achieved I think high scores starts to become possible.
I moved my left elbow 2-3cm closer to my body and that raised my position a little. I moved the sling upwards on my upper arm around 2cm but that may be to much because now I see more pulse. I tightened the sling 2 notches, this can also be the source of the visible pulse.
Now the position feels more stable and the feeling that the left arm pulls the rifle out of the shoulder is gone. NPA still wants to be to the left sometimes.
I will be experimenting with a new routine for reloading and putting my right elbow back in place. I will insert the cartridge in the chamber, make sure the buttplate is in the right spot in the shoulder, grasp the pistol grip, put cheek on cheekpiece to lock the position and then just lowering the right elbow to the mat.
The thing I do think of is how much of the NPA consistency is adjusting the rifle, sling and my body and how much of it is just practice. I've had people watching where I put my right elbow and I'm pretty consistent in that part.
The goal that I have with my prone position is that I want a position and technique that allows me to shot a 60 shot match indoors in about 30 minutes, allows me to completely relax, have perfect recoil that comes back to where I was aiming prior to the shot and have a consistent feeling and NPA. When this is achieved I think high scores starts to become possible.
I've recently gone through the same issues as you. Yes it is important to get into the same position each and every time. cm here or there is hardly a reason to get wrapped around the axil about. It comes down to comfort...get the sling, handstop comfortable. Get the buttplate comfortably snug in the shoulder with no slippage whatsoever!!! The most important to me is getting the cheek-rest perfect where your centered and not hunting around to find center......After you do that........Dry Fire, Dry Fire, Dry Fire........ Focusing on nothing but "Natural Point of Aim" Don't use the SCATT, just the target. This is boring as hell, but I'be found it to be Extremely beneficial. By doing this for a period of time as you mentioned builds stamina, and forces you to focus on nothing but "NPA" and Triggering with out the negative reinforcement of a bad shot. If forces you to see how much your muscling the rifle, wiggling your cheek hunting to find center.
Do this I and promise you, you will identify your flaws and discomforts. This will tell you how relaxed you are...
STEP 2. Group Shoot... Fire 10 shot groups without looking through your spotting scope. This Again forces you to focus on NPA now with recoil. Again the ideal recoil would be small and vertical with minimal left or right movement. Again by not looking or worrying about where the shot went re-inforces you focus on relaxing and finding your NPA and how relaxed you are.
3. After and only after you start getting the results your looking for do you shoot for score!
Thats Progressive Training! Divide your time evenly through these three steps..%33/33/33.. Again don't start shooting for score until you are producing the results you desire. You will know with to go to step 2. In step 2 do not proceed to step three until you can cover all your groups with a quarter and 50% of your groups with a nickel.
Good Luck, Let me know how that works for you.
Tenring
Do this I and promise you, you will identify your flaws and discomforts. This will tell you how relaxed you are...
STEP 2. Group Shoot... Fire 10 shot groups without looking through your spotting scope. This Again forces you to focus on NPA now with recoil. Again the ideal recoil would be small and vertical with minimal left or right movement. Again by not looking or worrying about where the shot went re-inforces you focus on relaxing and finding your NPA and how relaxed you are.
3. After and only after you start getting the results your looking for do you shoot for score!
Thats Progressive Training! Divide your time evenly through these three steps..%33/33/33.. Again don't start shooting for score until you are producing the results you desire. You will know with to go to step 2. In step 2 do not proceed to step three until you can cover all your groups with a quarter and 50% of your groups with a nickel.
Good Luck, Let me know how that works for you.
Tenring
I've had exactly that planned in my training plan for today. Dry fire with focus on relaxation and NPA. I guess I'm lucky because for me dry firing is fun and I do it quite often.
I have no problems to relax if I close my eyes but my NPA is not consistent and when I need to adjust the NPA for every shot it is hard to relax because the rifle wants to point between 9 O'Clock and 11 O'Clock when I relax.
It is when I completely relax my left shoulder that the rifle points just to the left at between 9 O'Clock and 11 O'Clock. If I keep a little tension in my left shoulder then it works better but that's no good because I want no tension at all in my arms, shoulders and neck when shooting prone.
Something happens when I reload but I don't know what but maybe it solves with training.
I have no problems to relax if I close my eyes but my NPA is not consistent and when I need to adjust the NPA for every shot it is hard to relax because the rifle wants to point between 9 O'Clock and 11 O'Clock when I relax.
It is when I completely relax my left shoulder that the rifle points just to the left at between 9 O'Clock and 11 O'Clock. If I keep a little tension in my left shoulder then it works better but that's no good because I want no tension at all in my arms, shoulders and neck when shooting prone.
Something happens when I reload but I don't know what but maybe it solves with training.
Today I tried another change in my sling setup. I adjusted the upper arm loop to be tighter and doing that changes how it align itselfs around the arm. I got the feeling that the sling pulls more straight out with more even pressure on both straps. Because of the sling getting shorter doing this I got to let the forward strap out 2 notches.
I'm going to try this change for a couple of dryfiring sessions and see if it has done things better. Next month I'm going do train prone only with dryfire but I'm going to attend to 5 matches so there I need to shoot live rounds.
I'm going to try this change for a couple of dryfiring sessions and see if it has done things better. Next month I'm going do train prone only with dryfire but I'm going to attend to 5 matches so there I need to shoot live rounds.
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dc.fireman
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:02 pm
Johan - I'm new to smallbore prone shooting - so don't take anything I offer here as the gospel truth, but - my experience over the last 9 months of practicing, has been that tightening the arm loop of the sling too much, can actually cause the pulse transmission to increase. What I have been looking for, is a way to cause my existing sling to pull from the 'outside' of my arm - that is, furthest away from the brachial artery, which runs down the inside of your upper arm. Good luck, and good shooting.
-tc
-tc
My solution to that fixing the sling to the sling holder and adjusting the tension to what was comfortable. The MEC sling and the Anschutz Swing sling, and Truttman sling are all designed to attach to the sling holder to prevent the sling from twisting. The MEC is most comfortable but expensive and breaks.. The Anschutz is moderately priced and tough. The Truttman I have not used, but have seen.
Or just afix the sling you have to the holder.
I still see pulse though, but with a good hold and trigger pull I cant blame
"my" misses on pulse. At leaset I don't want to cuz I have tried everything to get rid of it and I cant.
tenring
Or just afix the sling you have to the holder.
I still see pulse though, but with a good hold and trigger pull I cant blame
"my" misses on pulse. At leaset I don't want to cuz I have tried everything to get rid of it and I cant.
tenring
I got the sling in the slingholder but the sling must be set up correctly anyway. It's better now but it isn't perfect, I feel that I need to "fight" the sling like it's some force pulling in a direction that it shouldn't do. Very annoying when I know there is some problem but don't know why.
Regarding pulse I also see pulse and when using the SCATT I see that if I shoot just when the heart beats the shot can often be thrown out of the ten and often at 11 O´clock.
Regarding pulse I also see pulse and when using the SCATT I see that if I shoot just when the heart beats the shot can often be thrown out of the ten and often at 11 O´clock.
No definite solution yet. It works pretty good but not like I want it to. I have only trained with dry fire the whole of may. I've done two competitions and the results there where not fantastic but for me pretty good.
The results where 609,5(581) and 613,8(583). The first competition was very windy and the second had optimal conditions. The thing that annoys me is that I shot 583p with 34x, I lost many points because problems with my cheek pressure and I pushed several nines out to the right.
One thing that I do wonder. Is it possible to be completely relaxed, and I mean completely. I can relax completely, every muscle completely loose except my right hand but my NPA isn't consistent and therefore I need to do adjustments after every reloading. If I keep a very small amount of tension in the back of my right shoulder (holding it back slightly) and in my left shoulder then the position is more stable and the NPA is more consistent. This tension is very, very small.
The deviation I talk about is that after reloading maybe I'm aiming between 8,0-9,5 so it's pretty small deviations. How do you counter such NPA changes or is your NPA completely dead center after reloading?
The results where 609,5(581) and 613,8(583). The first competition was very windy and the second had optimal conditions. The thing that annoys me is that I shot 583p with 34x, I lost many points because problems with my cheek pressure and I pushed several nines out to the right.
One thing that I do wonder. Is it possible to be completely relaxed, and I mean completely. I can relax completely, every muscle completely loose except my right hand but my NPA isn't consistent and therefore I need to do adjustments after every reloading. If I keep a very small amount of tension in the back of my right shoulder (holding it back slightly) and in my left shoulder then the position is more stable and the NPA is more consistent. This tension is very, very small.
The deviation I talk about is that after reloading maybe I'm aiming between 8,0-9,5 so it's pretty small deviations. How do you counter such NPA changes or is your NPA completely dead center after reloading?
A few random thoughts on prone.
1. Comfort? Really? You want comfort get a glass of good scotch and an soft easy chair. You want to shoot 10s prepare to hurt.
2. The left elbow should be almost as far out as possible, with the forearm at the required angle. This allows the position to be as low as possible but still legal.
3. Every muscle in the body that you can relax, should be relaxed. Any muscle not relaxed when the shot is fired will relax involuntarily before the bullet leaves the barrel. That is the point of the NPA.
4. Pulse. The pulse can be minimized by getting the tightest possible position. When you see a pulse through the sights the first thing to do is thank God you still have one. Then time your trigger pull to shoot at the bottom.
5. Relaxation. Before each shot mentally tell yourself to relax and feel it happen. That makes sure you don't have unwanted muscle tension anywhere.
1. Comfort? Really? You want comfort get a glass of good scotch and an soft easy chair. You want to shoot 10s prepare to hurt.
2. The left elbow should be almost as far out as possible, with the forearm at the required angle. This allows the position to be as low as possible but still legal.
3. Every muscle in the body that you can relax, should be relaxed. Any muscle not relaxed when the shot is fired will relax involuntarily before the bullet leaves the barrel. That is the point of the NPA.
4. Pulse. The pulse can be minimized by getting the tightest possible position. When you see a pulse through the sights the first thing to do is thank God you still have one. Then time your trigger pull to shoot at the bottom.
5. Relaxation. Before each shot mentally tell yourself to relax and feel it happen. That makes sure you don't have unwanted muscle tension anywhere.
Hi
You mentioned cheek pressure. Have you tried adding the MEC duplex system to your rear sight with the additional ring ?
Others I know who use it have the additional ring in the sight picture, I have mine set up so it is not visible, but any movement of the head out of position I get shards of light at whatever angle in the sight picture therefore telling me head position or cheek pressure is wrong.
One for thought
You mentioned cheek pressure. Have you tried adding the MEC duplex system to your rear sight with the additional ring ?
Others I know who use it have the additional ring in the sight picture, I have mine set up so it is not visible, but any movement of the head out of position I get shards of light at whatever angle in the sight picture therefore telling me head position or cheek pressure is wrong.
One for thought
What size insert do you have in your MEC Duplex system to achieve this? I have been trying to do this but bought the wrong size insert.Bisley wrote:Hi
You mentioned cheek pressure. Have you tried adding the MEC duplex system to your rear sight with the additional ring ?
Others I know who use it have the additional ring in the sight picture, I have mine set up so it is not visible, but any movement of the head out of position I get shards of light at whatever angle in the sight picture therefore telling me head position or cheek pressure is wrong.
One for thought
Sorry to hijack the thread a bit!!!