I have a 12-year-old 75lb daughter who has been shooting smallbore 4P with a local 4H club for a couple years now. She is wanting to step up her game a bit, including plans to earn a scholarship to college and dreams of the Olympics. Part of this plan is starting target air rifle matches, which means that we need to get her a rifle. The two starter rifles that seem decently well-suited to the task are the Air Force Edge and Crosman CH2009. My concerns are finding a rifle that will adjust to a short enough length of pull and will be light enough for her to use in all positions. She loves the looks of the Edge and it does weigh over a pound less (6.1 vs 7.3lbs) than the Challenger, but I probably won't have the opportunity to have one in my hands to test versus the Challenger. How do these rifles compare, specifically for use by a small-for-her-age 12-year-old girl?
For length of pull, the Edge supposedly adjusts down to 12 inches. How short will the Challenger adjust? The weight of the Challenger seems really heavy for her. The Edge has an adjustable weight system if she wants to add weight, but how well does it actually work? How are the triggers on the two rifles? How do the sights that come with them compare? How loud are they when it comes to practicing at home? How many shots per fill do they get? How are the ergonomics and how easy would each be to use for a 12-year-old girl? How about accuracy, since if the rifle isn't accurate the rest won't matter?
I have a Marauder that I use for practicing for my smallbore and highpower silhouette matches, including a couple of the carbon fiber tanks, but I know little about target air rifles. I would greatly appreciate any experience you may be able to share.
Crosman CH2009 or Air Force Edge for daughter?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
Lots of discussion here on this topic, I would definitely do a search. Just for back ground reference, I have a J3 11 year old precision shooter 4'10 90 lbs, so I can sympathize with your concern and questions.
My quick two cents (which I'm sure is different than others) is this: IF you want to move into precision air rifle (not sporter) I would take the plunge and get a new (or used if you can find one) junior Walther, FWB or Anschutz. I think there are several that would second this, we even compete with a youth who bought a Air Force Edge (same thinking regarding precision) and within months switched to a Walther junior. If you can get with a club that has several different ones to try that is even better.
There is a difference. My son shoots the Crosman 2009 for sporter and I really like the gun as a good cross over. I have several youth that shoot it for precision and sporter. But when I test it head to head, adjustments, accuracy, trigger, consistency, etc it isnt even close to his FWB 700 junior. The FWB 700 junior is 7.6 lbs and he started using it when he was 10 and about 75 lbs. It takes a little getting used to for the weight and you have to work with their positions and be aware of the stress it can put on them.
If the only options are the Crosman or the Air Force I would opt for the Crosman. That is just based on our use of the Crosman. I know I've seen similar threads for that head to head comparison.
My quick two cents (which I'm sure is different than others) is this: IF you want to move into precision air rifle (not sporter) I would take the plunge and get a new (or used if you can find one) junior Walther, FWB or Anschutz. I think there are several that would second this, we even compete with a youth who bought a Air Force Edge (same thinking regarding precision) and within months switched to a Walther junior. If you can get with a club that has several different ones to try that is even better.
There is a difference. My son shoots the Crosman 2009 for sporter and I really like the gun as a good cross over. I have several youth that shoot it for precision and sporter. But when I test it head to head, adjustments, accuracy, trigger, consistency, etc it isnt even close to his FWB 700 junior. The FWB 700 junior is 7.6 lbs and he started using it when he was 10 and about 75 lbs. It takes a little getting used to for the weight and you have to work with their positions and be aware of the stress it can put on them.
If the only options are the Crosman or the Air Force I would opt for the Crosman. That is just based on our use of the Crosman. I know I've seen similar threads for that head to head comparison.
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GCSInc
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Air Force Edge(s) for Sale
Check the Buy, Sale, Trade section for a great price on (3) nearly new Air Force Edges. (1) Blue and (2) Red.
Roy
Roy
Hello,
I'm not a complete expert with the Crossman, but since I own an Edge I thought I'd give my two cents.
As a previous post suggested, I would also reccomend that you consider a presicion rifle because of your daughter's big goals. But if you choose a sporter air rifle I would go with the Crossman. I do not have one but I know that they're accurate based off of other shooters' scores. On the other side I do have an Edge and would not reccomend it to purchase because of its inacuracy. It has lots of great features but they don't mean anything without accuracy. I would suggest that you do some more research on this though, and find out other shooters experiences.
As a side note, I shoot an Air Arms T200. That would also be worth your consideration.
That's just my two cents. I hope it helps.
I'm not a complete expert with the Crossman, but since I own an Edge I thought I'd give my two cents.
As a previous post suggested, I would also reccomend that you consider a presicion rifle because of your daughter's big goals. But if you choose a sporter air rifle I would go with the Crossman. I do not have one but I know that they're accurate based off of other shooters' scores. On the other side I do have an Edge and would not reccomend it to purchase because of its inacuracy. It has lots of great features but they don't mean anything without accuracy. I would suggest that you do some more research on this though, and find out other shooters experiences.
As a side note, I shoot an Air Arms T200. That would also be worth your consideration.
That's just my two cents. I hope it helps.
Another $0.02
My only complaint against the Crosman 2009 is that I'm not happy with shooters having to fill the tanks in the middle of a 3x20 match.
I've heard too many complaints about the Edge's accuracy and it's just not worth training with a gun that is not a 10 ring gun.
(thoughts go back to the Crosman 2000 .. a 7-8 ring gun at best)
If you are going to spend the money that you would with a Crosman, I'd go with the T200 ... sure it's not as "adjustable", but it's accurate and can easily get thru a 3x20, even if the kid shoots 20-30 sighters per stage....
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My program uses (2)T200s, (1)XSV-40 and the rest are 888's and 887's
Bang for the buck ... 887 ... hands down.
My only complaint against the Crosman 2009 is that I'm not happy with shooters having to fill the tanks in the middle of a 3x20 match.
I've heard too many complaints about the Edge's accuracy and it's just not worth training with a gun that is not a 10 ring gun.
(thoughts go back to the Crosman 2000 .. a 7-8 ring gun at best)
If you are going to spend the money that you would with a Crosman, I'd go with the T200 ... sure it's not as "adjustable", but it's accurate and can easily get thru a 3x20, even if the kid shoots 20-30 sighters per stage....
======
My program uses (2)T200s, (1)XSV-40 and the rest are 888's and 887's
Bang for the buck ... 887 ... hands down.
Our Club has both the Crossman 2009 and Air Force Edge. For the smaller kids, we put them into an edge because it is easier to fit to a small shooter. Accuracy is ok with an edge, have shot 90 with them. Crossmans are 95+guns. Triggers are better with an edge, Crossmans can be adjusted, but we don't because if you get good with an ok trigger, when you step up to a precision gun, the kids all have good habits by that time. As far as the T200, I have seen these rifles and they seem to be excellent rifles. The stocks are shorter and the gun is very reliable from what I have seen. I'm afraid your daughter will outgrow the edge in a short period of time. My .02 would be a Crossman or Air Arms T200.
Challenger LOP is 12 1/4 inches.
Weight system on Edge you can add to the front as wanted, attaches with Oring system that works well
Trigger in Edge is better than Crossman
Sights are the same in my opinion, both work well, repeatable, easy to use.
Crossman is the quieter of the two. Not too loud to shoot in the home, many people do this.
Shots per fill is around 90 on a crossman and edge is about the same.
Challenger LOP is 12 1/4 inches.
Weight system on Edge you can add to the front as wanted, attaches with Oring system that works well
Trigger in Edge is better than Crossman
Sights are the same in my opinion, both work well, repeatable, easy to use.
Crossman is the quieter of the two. Not too loud to shoot in the home, many people do this.
Shots per fill is around 90 on a crossman and edge is about the same.
Thanks for all the great feedback so far.
My biggest concern about the Crosman is the weight. Quality of a trigger on a target rifle is a big deal to me, but I'm not concerned about the trigger on the Crosman at all. As I understand it, the CH2009 comes with the same trigger that is on the Marauder. I actually have a Marauder and with less than an hour's work and a couple small replacement parts I have taken that trigger from decent to very good. I'd easily say that, as long as I don't try to go below about 8 ounces with it, it's now as good as the 5109 (?) in my Anschutz 1712, but not nearly as good as the 5022 (5018 with heavier springs) on my highpower silhouette rifle. It's great to hear that it's quiet, as I'm spoiled by how quiet my Marauder is with its full-length barrel shroud and baffles. The sound of the pellet hitting paper is louder than the Marauder is, especially when I have it adjusted down to 600fps with 8gr pellets. :)
My biggest concern about the Edge is the accuracy, and it seems that you guys have confirmed that it is indeed a problem. As has been said, if the gun isn't accurate it doesn't matter what other features it has. That's really disappointing, as that seems to be the perfect rifle for my daughter on paper. We were even thinking about getting matching rifles to duel with, with me having a blue one adjusted long with weights and her having a red one adjusted short and left light. She had her hopes up after seeing pictures of them, since she loved the looks and the features. I was worried that she'd be disappointed and still want to get an Edge even with the chance of poor accuracy, but evidently she had read up on some reviews, too.
I don't really know much about the T200. I see from the listing on Pyramyd Air that it's 6.6lbs, which is .7lbs lighter than the Crosman. I've never seen one in person. How many shots does it get per fill? Is it worth it to buy an extra cylinder? Is the length of pull adjustable on it? If so, how short can it go? We just had to shorten my daughter's Anschutz 1451 another inch to get it to fit her, which instantly boosted her scores in smallbore. I would rather not have to cut up the stock on whatever we buy. How are the sights on it compared to the Crosman?
The Edge/Challenger 2009/T200 is pretty well at the top of our budget for this for now. While I would love to get her a FWB 700 Jr or similar rifle, we're also trying to save money to buy a new house, so I can't really justify putting that much into something she hasn't even tried yet. I'm fine with this purchase being a stepping stone toward a true precision air rifle later. Now that the Edge has been ruled out, that leaves the CH2009 and the T200. Unless I find that the T200 has some clear advantages over the CH2009, I'll probably go with the CH2009. A friend who is helping my daughter with coaching and who I trust completely has an extra CH2009 that he may be selling, so it might be a good idea to just let my daughter try that one out.
Thanks again for all the help. It's much appreciated, and feel free to keep it coming if you think of anything else that may help her get started into air rifle competition.
My biggest concern about the Crosman is the weight. Quality of a trigger on a target rifle is a big deal to me, but I'm not concerned about the trigger on the Crosman at all. As I understand it, the CH2009 comes with the same trigger that is on the Marauder. I actually have a Marauder and with less than an hour's work and a couple small replacement parts I have taken that trigger from decent to very good. I'd easily say that, as long as I don't try to go below about 8 ounces with it, it's now as good as the 5109 (?) in my Anschutz 1712, but not nearly as good as the 5022 (5018 with heavier springs) on my highpower silhouette rifle. It's great to hear that it's quiet, as I'm spoiled by how quiet my Marauder is with its full-length barrel shroud and baffles. The sound of the pellet hitting paper is louder than the Marauder is, especially when I have it adjusted down to 600fps with 8gr pellets. :)
My biggest concern about the Edge is the accuracy, and it seems that you guys have confirmed that it is indeed a problem. As has been said, if the gun isn't accurate it doesn't matter what other features it has. That's really disappointing, as that seems to be the perfect rifle for my daughter on paper. We were even thinking about getting matching rifles to duel with, with me having a blue one adjusted long with weights and her having a red one adjusted short and left light. She had her hopes up after seeing pictures of them, since she loved the looks and the features. I was worried that she'd be disappointed and still want to get an Edge even with the chance of poor accuracy, but evidently she had read up on some reviews, too.
I don't really know much about the T200. I see from the listing on Pyramyd Air that it's 6.6lbs, which is .7lbs lighter than the Crosman. I've never seen one in person. How many shots does it get per fill? Is it worth it to buy an extra cylinder? Is the length of pull adjustable on it? If so, how short can it go? We just had to shorten my daughter's Anschutz 1451 another inch to get it to fit her, which instantly boosted her scores in smallbore. I would rather not have to cut up the stock on whatever we buy. How are the sights on it compared to the Crosman?
The Edge/Challenger 2009/T200 is pretty well at the top of our budget for this for now. While I would love to get her a FWB 700 Jr or similar rifle, we're also trying to save money to buy a new house, so I can't really justify putting that much into something she hasn't even tried yet. I'm fine with this purchase being a stepping stone toward a true precision air rifle later. Now that the Edge has been ruled out, that leaves the CH2009 and the T200. Unless I find that the T200 has some clear advantages over the CH2009, I'll probably go with the CH2009. A friend who is helping my daughter with coaching and who I trust completely has an extra CH2009 that he may be selling, so it might be a good idea to just let my daughter try that one out.
Thanks again for all the help. It's much appreciated, and feel free to keep it coming if you think of anything else that may help her get started into air rifle competition.
Sights on Challenger and T200 are basically the same. The T200 comes with a chinese knock-off of the ones on the Challenger (Gamo). The Gamo are a bit better made.
Note on the trigger, if she's going to shoot sporter a while, weight is min of 1.5 lbs.
If you have an opportunity to try one or the other, do everything you can to do so. As you noted the T200 is lighter.
You can extend the T200 stock w/spacers, but to shorten it you'll have to slice. I think a normal 12 year old may have issues with the LOP on the Challenger, but also maybe so on the T200 ... I have a chopped T200 that many of my 12-13 year olds use ... 14-15 is where I get them into the T200s and 887's.
I personally think the Edge, Challenger, T200 are a bit expensive, but compared to a true precision rifle, yeah, they are cheap. In terms of resale for later, T200 and Ch-2009 should hold their values pretty well.
Note on the trigger, if she's going to shoot sporter a while, weight is min of 1.5 lbs.
If you have an opportunity to try one or the other, do everything you can to do so. As you noted the T200 is lighter.
You can extend the T200 stock w/spacers, but to shorten it you'll have to slice. I think a normal 12 year old may have issues with the LOP on the Challenger, but also maybe so on the T200 ... I have a chopped T200 that many of my 12-13 year olds use ... 14-15 is where I get them into the T200s and 887's.
I personally think the Edge, Challenger, T200 are a bit expensive, but compared to a true precision rifle, yeah, they are cheap. In terms of resale for later, T200 and Ch-2009 should hold their values pretty well.
According to my notes the Air Arms S200T with the one-piece stock has a 14.17 inch LoP.
In my book, that is NOT a junior size LoP. That is an adult size LoP.
I shoot with a 11-3/4 inch LoP on my P70-jr (w/o a shooting jacket). So I would have to cut off 2 inches from that stock.
The older 2 piece stock was available from CZ in 3 different LoP (12.6, 13.9, 14.2 inches). The question was did the importer bring in the different lengths, or just choose one length.
I shot the original Daisy Valient, and I think that had the short 12.6 inch LoP, as it fit me pretty well.
In my book, that is NOT a junior size LoP. That is an adult size LoP.
I shoot with a 11-3/4 inch LoP on my P70-jr (w/o a shooting jacket). So I would have to cut off 2 inches from that stock.
The older 2 piece stock was available from CZ in 3 different LoP (12.6, 13.9, 14.2 inches). The question was did the importer bring in the different lengths, or just choose one length.
I shot the original Daisy Valient, and I think that had the short 12.6 inch LoP, as it fit me pretty well.
My daughter is a couple of years ahead of yours, she is 14. We had the same type discussion about a year ago when she was 13. She wanted to get serious about shooting and has Olympic dreams. At the time she had minimal experience with sporter air rifle and small bore.
I chose to skip the sporter step and go straight to precision. She has qualified for JOs her first year and is doing well. In my opinion from limited experience, I suggest as others have that you do the same. I don't see there is anything to gain from holding a shooter back with sporter equipment for a few years. As a matter of fact the lack of adjustability of the sporter equipment can make it almost impossible to properly fit a rifle to the kid. This can actually cause them a lot of frustration, and may even cause them to lose interest.
I am dealing with this right now with a friend who has a 10 year old boy who wants to shoot. We tried and tried to get him into a workable standing position with a Challenger. Finally, I got my daughters (extra) LG400 aluminum and an old jacket she had out grown. Even though the jacket was too big and the gun was a good 3 lbs heavier than the crossman, I had him in a stable standing position in 10 minutes. Because of the adjustability of the Walther, I was able to fit it to him and he could use his position to support the rifle. With the crossman, we simply could not get the gun to fit him with the limited adjustments and he was unable to assume a position that allowed him to support the gun properly.
Of course, much of the problem can be cost. It is far more expensive to go precision and much more complicated. However, if she is serious, getting her started in precision now would serve her well in another year or two.
I chose to skip the sporter step and go straight to precision. She has qualified for JOs her first year and is doing well. In my opinion from limited experience, I suggest as others have that you do the same. I don't see there is anything to gain from holding a shooter back with sporter equipment for a few years. As a matter of fact the lack of adjustability of the sporter equipment can make it almost impossible to properly fit a rifle to the kid. This can actually cause them a lot of frustration, and may even cause them to lose interest.
I am dealing with this right now with a friend who has a 10 year old boy who wants to shoot. We tried and tried to get him into a workable standing position with a Challenger. Finally, I got my daughters (extra) LG400 aluminum and an old jacket she had out grown. Even though the jacket was too big and the gun was a good 3 lbs heavier than the crossman, I had him in a stable standing position in 10 minutes. Because of the adjustability of the Walther, I was able to fit it to him and he could use his position to support the rifle. With the crossman, we simply could not get the gun to fit him with the limited adjustments and he was unable to assume a position that allowed him to support the gun properly.
Of course, much of the problem can be cost. It is far more expensive to go precision and much more complicated. However, if she is serious, getting her started in precision now would serve her well in another year or two.
I didn't think of how "extra" air rifle sounds until your post! Actually, that one has been handed down to her 12 year old brother who after a couple of months decided he does not want to shoot right now........ hence the "extra" comment. She is shooting a Walther Anatomic now. Little brother has began to show some interest again the last few days, so hopefully it will not be extra much longer!! :)
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Bob Mccollum
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- Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:03 pm
Air Rifle
One thing you need to keep in mind , if she is going to continue shooting 4-H some of the rifles mentioned are not usable in 4-H. I do know the CH2009 and the Edge are. The Anschutz, FWB and Walther are not. Be sure to check if she is going to shoot 4-H .
Good Luck to her, have fun shooting!
Good Luck to her, have fun shooting!
I'm a 4-H coach, and while all 4-H programs are a bit different, 4-H shooting is basically sporter in air rifle and there are not that many 4-H matches.
If she has collegiate and possibly Olympic dreams, her age is a great one to begin looking at the international programs for shooting .... Women 40 shot standing for air and 3x20 for smallbore.
I just bounced into what I think is a great "precision/international" starter air rifle, and that is the AR20 by Hammerli/Walther ... It's a basic rifle that you can add on to as she ages and gets stronger ... and it's only about $850-$900.
As she begins shooting and if she want to compete in 4-H (not really a whole bunch of that) picking up an inexpensive 888 can keep her in that game.
There is no disadvantage to getting her going at 12 on the international side.
In fact, it helps.
If she has collegiate and possibly Olympic dreams, her age is a great one to begin looking at the international programs for shooting .... Women 40 shot standing for air and 3x20 for smallbore.
I just bounced into what I think is a great "precision/international" starter air rifle, and that is the AR20 by Hammerli/Walther ... It's a basic rifle that you can add on to as she ages and gets stronger ... and it's only about $850-$900.
As she begins shooting and if she want to compete in 4-H (not really a whole bunch of that) picking up an inexpensive 888 can keep her in that game.
There is no disadvantage to getting her going at 12 on the international side.
In fact, it helps.
Thanks again for all the advice shared here. We picked up the CH2009 and, with about an hour of work and a couple part swaps, the trigger on it is very good. She has only tried it in standing, but adjusting the length of pull all the way in fit her fine and the feel is very similar to her smallbore rifle. Her practice targets are improving quickly, and I think being able to do more than dry fire practice at home will help her smallbore scores, too.