Kneeling. Any tips?
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HannahGary
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm
Hannah,
Thanks for putting up the pictures. I see now what you mean that the last 2 or 3 inches of the rail next to the trigger guard are unusable.
Clearly Walther has in mind something with a very long T-nut will fit up into that slot to be fastened to the rail but this creates problems for smaller shooters who might actually want to use that part of the rail to help them shoot.
Now looking at your position I have a few immediate thoughts:
First, how many buttons do you have fastened on your jacket? The way it blouses out it looks like it might only be one, try for at least two. There is a delicate balance between relieving the stress on the lower torso and having the jacket too loose on the upper torso. If the jacket is too loose up top then through the course of the stage the sling will slowly pull the jacket around the upper body causing the position to settle.
Straps on back of right shoulder, look like they may be just barely tight. This plays in some with jacket tightness across the upper torso so you may try taking them up a notch to see if this makes the jacket a little more snug through the shoulders.
Now, looking at your sling and sling arm: Where is the rifle crossing your hand? Ideally the center of the rifle rests more on the thick pad at the base of the thumb than in the center of the palm or if you are looking down at your hand, to the left of center. This allows the wrist to be straighter (which is more comfortable) and for the rifle to rest on part of the hand where there is more padding. Looking at the picture, with the jacket and glove in there it is hard to tell for sure but you might have the rifle in the center or to the right of center in the palm, this can cause extra stress on the wrist and make things painful.
There is some chance you are doing something called “shooting across the position” This is a situation where the left arm/sling setup is not vertical but the left elbow is in toward the center and the left hand is moved outward. If you were to look straight down from the top you would see that the left arm is laying over to the left or outside of the position somewhat. You don’t by any chance have motion or shots on a line from about 8 o-clock to 2 o-clock? As this would be a dead giveaway.
Although it can be hard to get it perfect, a flat plate that is straight up and down should pass through the center of the contact points of the hand to rifle and elbow to knee.
Now, interestingly enough it looks like your left arm might be at an angle above your left thigh. This would indicate that you need to take some stuffing out of your kneeling roll. This brings the left knee up in relation to your shoulders. Then to get the rifle down you flatten out the left arm some. This takes some bend/ pressure out of the wrist. (Recall the initial setup the left thigh and left lower arm should appear to continue in just about a perfect straight line.)
Finally, while the sling forms nicely along the back of the hand it looks like it may be cutting into the back of your wrist, this is a function of the short handstop, the wide synthetic sling and bone structure that appears to be on the smaller side. Something else to try here would be to get a taller handstop and place it where your current hand stop is, this one will be used to stop your hand. Then take your current short handstop and run it 2 or 3 inches further out on the foreend and use that as the attachment point for your sling. This will allow the sling to take a different line across the back of your hand and may relieve some of the pressure and discomfort.
Good Luck
‘Dude
Thanks for putting up the pictures. I see now what you mean that the last 2 or 3 inches of the rail next to the trigger guard are unusable.
Clearly Walther has in mind something with a very long T-nut will fit up into that slot to be fastened to the rail but this creates problems for smaller shooters who might actually want to use that part of the rail to help them shoot.
Now looking at your position I have a few immediate thoughts:
First, how many buttons do you have fastened on your jacket? The way it blouses out it looks like it might only be one, try for at least two. There is a delicate balance between relieving the stress on the lower torso and having the jacket too loose on the upper torso. If the jacket is too loose up top then through the course of the stage the sling will slowly pull the jacket around the upper body causing the position to settle.
Straps on back of right shoulder, look like they may be just barely tight. This plays in some with jacket tightness across the upper torso so you may try taking them up a notch to see if this makes the jacket a little more snug through the shoulders.
Now, looking at your sling and sling arm: Where is the rifle crossing your hand? Ideally the center of the rifle rests more on the thick pad at the base of the thumb than in the center of the palm or if you are looking down at your hand, to the left of center. This allows the wrist to be straighter (which is more comfortable) and for the rifle to rest on part of the hand where there is more padding. Looking at the picture, with the jacket and glove in there it is hard to tell for sure but you might have the rifle in the center or to the right of center in the palm, this can cause extra stress on the wrist and make things painful.
There is some chance you are doing something called “shooting across the position” This is a situation where the left arm/sling setup is not vertical but the left elbow is in toward the center and the left hand is moved outward. If you were to look straight down from the top you would see that the left arm is laying over to the left or outside of the position somewhat. You don’t by any chance have motion or shots on a line from about 8 o-clock to 2 o-clock? As this would be a dead giveaway.
Although it can be hard to get it perfect, a flat plate that is straight up and down should pass through the center of the contact points of the hand to rifle and elbow to knee.
Now, interestingly enough it looks like your left arm might be at an angle above your left thigh. This would indicate that you need to take some stuffing out of your kneeling roll. This brings the left knee up in relation to your shoulders. Then to get the rifle down you flatten out the left arm some. This takes some bend/ pressure out of the wrist. (Recall the initial setup the left thigh and left lower arm should appear to continue in just about a perfect straight line.)
Finally, while the sling forms nicely along the back of the hand it looks like it may be cutting into the back of your wrist, this is a function of the short handstop, the wide synthetic sling and bone structure that appears to be on the smaller side. Something else to try here would be to get a taller handstop and place it where your current hand stop is, this one will be used to stop your hand. Then take your current short handstop and run it 2 or 3 inches further out on the foreend and use that as the attachment point for your sling. This will allow the sling to take a different line across the back of your hand and may relieve some of the pressure and discomfort.
Good Luck
‘Dude
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HannahGary
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm
Thank you for all the tips. I have the top two buttons of the jacket buttoned though and in that picture I was using a smaller kneeling roll than what I normally use. It's filled with rolled up foam padding and I'll put a picture of it up so you can see. I shot with it in my competition today and at practice a few times and shot a 97 each time which was an improvement from the usual 94-95. And I also have a picture of my sling set up that I will post.
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HannahGary
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm
I know I said I would check out of this one, but I do have a couple more comments.
First, you are on the right track changing kneeling rolls. Although I would suggest something other than the rolled up foam. Foam never "settles" and becomes firm. Maybe you could re-fill your other one with other fill materials as has been suggested or just remove some of the beads.
Second thought; You commented your arm is stretched way out..... It did not look that low to me. In your picture it looks like you use an "over the knee" elbow placement. Have you ever tried "behind the knee"? You can go up to 6" behind the knee with your elbow. My daughter uses a behind the knee position and a significantly flatter arm. She has a very stable kneeling position. Thing is, everyone's body proportions are different, what works for her might not work for you..... Sounds like you are making progress though, good shooting!
First, you are on the right track changing kneeling rolls. Although I would suggest something other than the rolled up foam. Foam never "settles" and becomes firm. Maybe you could re-fill your other one with other fill materials as has been suggested or just remove some of the beads.
Second thought; You commented your arm is stretched way out..... It did not look that low to me. In your picture it looks like you use an "over the knee" elbow placement. Have you ever tried "behind the knee"? You can go up to 6" behind the knee with your elbow. My daughter uses a behind the knee position and a significantly flatter arm. She has a very stable kneeling position. Thing is, everyone's body proportions are different, what works for her might not work for you..... Sounds like you are making progress though, good shooting!
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HannahGary
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm
I actually have tried putting it behind my knee but it just felt like my elbow would slip down. It never did but the thought was always there and I didn't want it to suddenly slip while shooting if you know what I meanrmarsh wrote: Second thought; You commented your arm is stretched way out..... It did not look that low to me. In your picture it looks like you use an "over the knee" elbow placement. Have you ever tried "behind the knee"? You can go up to 6" behind the knee with your elbow. My daughter uses a behind the knee position and a significantly flatter arm. She has a very stable kneeling position. Thing is, everyone's body proportions are different, what works for her might not work for you..... Sounds like you are making progress though, good shooting!
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HannahGary
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm
Hannah,
Good that you have seen some improvement with the lower roll. As I pointed out before and has been reiterated by rmarsh the roll you are experimenting with will never become completely firm so it will never be the same for any two shots.
Now, there are two things that happen with rolls, yeah, most people have them too full. Sure they are comfortable but the position is too tall and it upsets the setup on the front of the position, the sling arm and forend are never quite right. The next thing that happens is you get a roll that is big bag and does not have enough stuffing in it, while the roll is the proper height it become too broad and hurts the ankle as it is too flat. My guess is you have a smaller foot and would be best off with a smaller roll with a modest amount of filling rather than a large roll with a small amount of filling. Kneeling rolls, at least in the US, are typically treated as one size fits all. The Europeans do sell them in sizes, both Thune and Sauer have a small (about 4.7” dia) and large (5.8” dia or so). Sorry don’t know about the price. Rolls are not too hard to make if you know someone who is handy with a sewing machine. (max 9.8” long and 7.1” dia but there is no way you need something that large.) Regardless of source and size you want to go with the "beanbag" type of roll
The closeup on the sling is striking for one reason, it looks new and STIFF. It is a subtle thing but the stiffness of the synthetic material prevents the sling from forming to the curvature of the hand. Consider that wrapping a sling around your hand is not unlike wrapping a piece of paper onto a basketball, a synthetic sling wants to wrap the long way but stays stiff the short way. You can soften the synthetic by taking the sling apart and flexing it by rolling the two sides back and forth in your hands. This is why I favor leather slings, they are a little more willing to wrap to all the contours of your hand. Anyone in your club have an old well broken in leather sling you could try?
Some of the more advanced shooters do have a position where the elbow is behind the knee. For this to be really stable the elbow pad on the jacket and pants must be compatible to lock to each other very well, and the pants have to really adhere to the leg so they do not start sliding up the leg. There is some work being done with this position with some exceptional results but for the time being, your position with the elbow over the knee demonstrates positive stability, the pants won’t slide down the leg and the elbow and knee will naturally fit together. Unless you really want to experiment, you are fine.
After all of this, changing the roll and tossing out a few suggestions does your hand feel any better? That is where this discussion started.
Trying to flip the rail around is a worthwhile suggestion if you and the Major can get it to work. Even if you don’t end up using the extra room, such a switch may help with piece of mind.
Cheers,
‘Dude
Good that you have seen some improvement with the lower roll. As I pointed out before and has been reiterated by rmarsh the roll you are experimenting with will never become completely firm so it will never be the same for any two shots.
Now, there are two things that happen with rolls, yeah, most people have them too full. Sure they are comfortable but the position is too tall and it upsets the setup on the front of the position, the sling arm and forend are never quite right. The next thing that happens is you get a roll that is big bag and does not have enough stuffing in it, while the roll is the proper height it become too broad and hurts the ankle as it is too flat. My guess is you have a smaller foot and would be best off with a smaller roll with a modest amount of filling rather than a large roll with a small amount of filling. Kneeling rolls, at least in the US, are typically treated as one size fits all. The Europeans do sell them in sizes, both Thune and Sauer have a small (about 4.7” dia) and large (5.8” dia or so). Sorry don’t know about the price. Rolls are not too hard to make if you know someone who is handy with a sewing machine. (max 9.8” long and 7.1” dia but there is no way you need something that large.) Regardless of source and size you want to go with the "beanbag" type of roll
The closeup on the sling is striking for one reason, it looks new and STIFF. It is a subtle thing but the stiffness of the synthetic material prevents the sling from forming to the curvature of the hand. Consider that wrapping a sling around your hand is not unlike wrapping a piece of paper onto a basketball, a synthetic sling wants to wrap the long way but stays stiff the short way. You can soften the synthetic by taking the sling apart and flexing it by rolling the two sides back and forth in your hands. This is why I favor leather slings, they are a little more willing to wrap to all the contours of your hand. Anyone in your club have an old well broken in leather sling you could try?
Some of the more advanced shooters do have a position where the elbow is behind the knee. For this to be really stable the elbow pad on the jacket and pants must be compatible to lock to each other very well, and the pants have to really adhere to the leg so they do not start sliding up the leg. There is some work being done with this position with some exceptional results but for the time being, your position with the elbow over the knee demonstrates positive stability, the pants won’t slide down the leg and the elbow and knee will naturally fit together. Unless you really want to experiment, you are fine.
After all of this, changing the roll and tossing out a few suggestions does your hand feel any better? That is where this discussion started.
Trying to flip the rail around is a worthwhile suggestion if you and the Major can get it to work. Even if you don’t end up using the extra room, such a switch may help with piece of mind.
Cheers,
‘Dude
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HannahGary
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm
The sling I'm using was used for several years by another shooter and when she left the school it was given to me and I've had it for 3 years now. We don't have any leather slings, we just have more synthetic slings that are too long for me cause our JROTC program is pretty limited. And my hand does feel so much better. I don't even start to feel pain until about the last shot or 2. And I looked at the rail today and it has 3 screws and can be turned around very easily. Someone also mentioned using two handstops (a shorter one in front to clip my sling to and a taller one for my hand) and that took some more pressure off my hand but not so much that the position was unstable. I really appreciate all the help you guys. It means so much
Hannah,
Glad to hear that this has all helped out.
Amazing that the sling has that much time on it and still looks that good. The indestructibility of synthetic slings is a bit of a concern, as you can tell from some of my comments I feel they are a little too stiff and too indestructible.
Good luck fine tuning the hints that have come across during this discussion.
Cheers,
'Dude
Glad to hear that this has all helped out.
Amazing that the sling has that much time on it and still looks that good. The indestructibility of synthetic slings is a bit of a concern, as you can tell from some of my comments I feel they are a little too stiff and too indestructible.
Good luck fine tuning the hints that have come across during this discussion.
Cheers,
'Dude
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HannahGary
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm
Well, we got news today that one of the top 10 dropped out so I moved to 10th place and will compete in the JROTC Nationals in Anniston, Alabama. I had competed in the Army and Airforce JROTC Nationals but now I'm gonna be up against the Navy and Marines too. So if any of you are near there ya'll should come watch. It's gonna be on the 21-23 of this month and it really is an awesome opportunity to meet new people and just see what others do differently.
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HannahGary
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm
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topclass52
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:09 pm
- Location: NorCal
kneeling
this post has been very informative! I especially appreciate the thoughtful and concise answers/suggestions/tips provided. While not having the same questions as the original poster, the thread has opened my eyes to trying a few different things to improve my kneeling position and scores. As someone who is self-taught (mostly by trial and error), this type of knowledge from the community is very priceless. Thank you all!
Topclass52
Topclass52