Kneeling. Any tips?

[HannahGary]

Hi, new to this so I'm gonna introduce myself. I'm Hannah, 16 and have been shooting for only 3 years so i'm not THAT familiar with everything. I just recently shot in the JROTC National Competition in Anniston, Alabama. I came in 11th with a 1155. In my first relay I shot a 580 and 575 in my second. What had really brought my score down was my last 10 shots in kneeling. My first 10 shots got me a 97 and my last got me a 93. Every time I get in the kneeling position my hand starts going numb and turning kinda purple from the sling and hurts really bad. I don't want to really move out of position too much though so I just pick the rifle up until it goes away. I've tried loosening it and tightening it and nothing has fixed it.My prone position is perfectly fine and I have no trouble with it. I shoot 99 and 100s all day. It just confuses me when I get into kneeling. Does anyone have any suggestions that would help with this problem??

[jhmartin]

For 16 years ... great shooting gal!
Questions for you:
1) Precision of course (just so folks know)
2) What kind of rifle are you shooting?
3) What kind of glove do you use?
4) What handstop are you using?
5) What sling are you using?

[HannahGary]

Questions for you:
1) Precision of course (just so folks know)
2) What kind of rifle are you shooting?
3) What kind of glove do you use?
4) What handstop are you using?
5) What sling are you using?

1. Yes
2. A Walther LG300 Junior
3. A fingerless Kurt Thune glove
4. Just a basic, small, round handstop
5. A Sauer standard sling

[redschietti]

ktg2214 glove fixed the same problem for my daughter, she struggled for a couple years with the bruises before that

[justadude]

Hannah,

There is an old saying about the kneeling position, "Difficult to learn but easy to master." While learning the intricacies it will pluck every fibre of your patience, then one day you will get down on the line and ask yourself why you had made it so hard. But I digress...

One thing to consider is that although it uses a sling, kneeling is not like an upright prone position. The orientation of the rifle with the shoulders is completely different.

Now, since you have a comfortable position with your hand in prone and it does not get all painful and purple it sounds like the rig you have should be able to work, but in kneeling you are applying extra pressure.

A few questions, are you moving the handstop back for kneeling? A guess here is that the overall rifle is set up too long and your right shoulder (right handed shooter) is forcing the rifle forward and this is taking placing extra pressure on the sling.

You may want to build a foundation and pick the rifle up and hold it where you would be comfortable shooting it while the handstop is well forward and see where your hand naturally ends up. If it seems to be further back from where it is presently then that could be part of the problem.

The other thing to consider when you are building the position is that when you are down on the kneeling roll you usually want to be setup so your left foot, right knee and your torso more or less faces toward the target (a closed kneeling position) as opposed to the left foot facing the target while the right knee is pointing at the wall to your right or in some cases toward the back of the range. (an open kneeling position).

If you have a relaxed but closed foundation you might find it easier to get the handstop/sling in a position that is comfortable and not painful and purple. Unfortunately, without seeing your position this is all a bit on conjecture.

'Dude

[DesertShooter]

'Dude has many good points. Another thing to consider is where you have the sling on your arm. Is it too high or too low.

[HannahGary]

I'm a very small person so naturally my arms are pretty short. I keep the handstop as close as I can to me cause when I move it further I just go flat and it's not very stable. We do have other handstops though and I'm thinking I might try switching to one that's a little taller (if that makes any sense) so it won't put so much pressure on it. I've used it before with my old rifle and I did fairly well but it was 2 and a half years ago when I was just starting out. But will they allow you to use different ones in a competition? Cause I know they don't check your handstops.....
-justadude: I have my body at kind of an angle cause it just feels more natural to me so my left foot isn't pointed towards the target, it's pointed more towards right of it. And no, the swivel stays in the same spot for prone that I have it in for kneeling
-DesertShooter: I have my sling attached to my jacket above my bicep

[DesertShooter]

One thing I found when building my kneeling position was how far above my bicep the sling was changed how my hand felt. I tried it with the sling right above my bicep then kept moving it higher until it started to feel unsteady or there was pain. Then I would move it back down. It was just a matter of finding what felt right. What seems like a little change could mean a lot of difference. Then I crashed a motorcycle and am now having to rebuild my position. A taller hand stop might help too. When I used the short ones the sling pinched my hand more.

[rmarsh]

First of all, Great Shooting!!

Let me start my comments by saying that I am not a coach..... My daughter (age 14) shoots 3P air and small bore. She has a coach who does all the rifle and position set up for her. From what I have learned watching him work with her, I would say suggestions from "Dude" sound solid. I would guess that maybe your rifle is a little too tight. Many ways to solve that, I think Dude covered most of the major ones.

I do have one suggestion that helped my daughter a little bit, although she was not having as much discomfort as you seem to be having.

She also uses a small, short handstop, it is what her coach prefers. Recently she switched to a MEC sling. The MEC sling does not use a sling swivel. The attachment stud goes through the sling and attaches directly to the handstop. It's rather hard to describe, you should be able to find a picture on the web if you google it. The way it attaches to the rifle lets it lay across the hand better. My daughter really liked it for both kneeling and prone and said from the first moment she tried it that it was much more comfortable and hurt her hand much less.

Keep up the great shooting, maybe we will run into you at a match one of these days.

[justadude]

Hannah,

A few refinements here:

When talking about where the body is pointed I look for the middle ground. If you think about it, for the geometry to work correctly there is a line from the right shoulder over the top of the left knee that must point at the target. The rifle lays on this line. Now, I can point my left knee directly at the target, push my right shoulder WAAAYYY back often by pointing my right knee toward almost at the wall behind me and get this to happen. (But don't do this.)

More preferable is to have the body facing say 20-30 degrees to the right of the line to the target. In position the right knee is about straight out from your body and the left foot will be just about parallel with the right leg. You should feel comfortable not like you are doing some stretching exercise.

Next, the heel of your right foot needs to be pretty much at the base of the spine. A common error is to have the heel under the right buttock which causes the position to want to fall to the left. With your foot on the kneeling roll base of your spine on the heel, in position without the rifle close your eyes and think if you feel like you are going to fall off to the right or left. Most shooter find that they need to pull the right toe to the outside (going from toe to heel foot slants to left when viewed from behind) to get the position to remain upright without feeling like you have to lift off with either the R knee or L foot.

Now to the root of your problem. You say that the handstop is a short one and is in the same position, for prone and kneeling. Without looking at you I can almost bet the handstop is too far forward. Usually it comes back for kneeling. Going to a taller handstop will likely take some pressure off of your hand. The sling with a short handstop forms a V shaped space you are trying to stuff your hand into. Put some tension on the sling and there can be an impressive amount of pressure trying to crush the hand. Using a taller handstop will form a space that looks more like a box "[ " that the web of your hand will press against. The pressure will now be on the web of your hand rather than crushed between the sling and the stock. So a taller handstop could easily help.

We have not discussed the extension on the butt and as you say you are small so it may be as short as it can go already but shooting with a short length of pull (buttplate to grip distance) can help close up the position and also take some pressure off the left hand. Shortening the butt also has the effect of bringing the handstop back toward you.

One poster mentioned the MEC sling. You really do have to look at one to appreciate how they are setup. For hand pain the biggest advantage is that it is single (rather than doubled over) strap against the back of the hand. (Therefore more flexible) With as many neat ideas that are in the MEC sling there are also some issues, first, they are unbelievably expensive ($200 range) and one prone shooter friend of mine had the front post that attaches to the handstop pull out while he was in position. He was none to pleased that the barrel of his prone gun bounced on the concrete when this happened.

I shot a synthetic sling for many years but recently went back to a leather sling, ($60) what I lose in absolute rigidity of synthetic I get back in comfort. (I took the new leather sling and treated it liberally with some of the leather treatment horse people use to maintain saddles , bridles and reigns got it nice an soft before I ever strapped in with it.)

Finally, are you using your own kneeling roll or a club roll? Do you get to use the same roll each training session? What is your roll stuffed with? Many shooters make the mistake of just taking a roll, plopping it down and shooting, never thinking about the fact that fill in the roll affects the height of the shoulders which will affect the setup of the handstop and sling. There is also a problem with crushable fill such as cork that slowly compresses thought the stage.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts this AM.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,
'Dude

[remmy223]

Is your sling attachment point in front of the handstop or directly underneath? and what type of attachment is it?

[HannahGary]

Is your sling attachment point in front of the handstop or directly underneath? and what type of attachment is it?

[HannahGary]

Next, the heel of your right foot needs to be pretty much at the base of the spine. A common error is to have the heel under the right buttock which causes the position to want to fall to the left. With your foot on the kneeling roll base of your spine on the heel, in position without the rifle close your eyes and think if you feel like you are going to fall off to the right or left.
Now to the root of your problem. You say that the handstop is a short one and is in the same position, for prone and kneeling. Without looking at you I can almost bet the handstop is too far forward. Usually it comes back for kneeling. Going to a taller handstop will likely take some pressure off of your hand. The sling with a short handstop forms a V shaped space you are trying to stuff your hand into. Put some tension on the sling and there can be an impressive amount of pressure trying to crush the hand. Using a taller handstop will form a space that looks more like a box "[ " that the web of your hand will press against. The pressure will now be on the web of your hand rather than crushed between the sling and the stock. So a taller handstop could easily help.

We have not discussed the extension on the butt and as you say you are small so it may be as short as it can go already but shooting with a short length of pull (buttplate to grip distance) can help close up the position and also take some pressure off the left hand. Shortening the butt also has the effect of bringing the handstop back toward you.

Finally, are you using your own kneeling roll or a club roll? Do you get to use the same roll each training session? What is your roll stuffed with? Many shooters make the mistake of just taking a roll, plopping it down and shooting, never thinking about the fact that fill in the roll affects the height of the shoulders which will affect the setup of the handstop and sling. There is also a problem with crushable fill such as cork that slowly compresses thought the stage.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts this AM.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,
'Dude

My right foot does stay at the base of my spine. The swivel is as close to the trigger guard as it can get (even though it's not that close). Instead of slipping the bipod and everything on from the end of the rifle like most, I have to put mine on in front of the trigger guard so it can't get any closer cause it won't tighten down. The butt of the rifle is as short as it can get. And I am using my own kneeling roll. It's kinda like the "Jelly Rolls" for kids except it's a little larger. And it's filled with those tiny foam beads.

[gwsb]

As Dude implied once you get kneeling it will be hard to shoot a 9. Prone is just lie down, dont move and crank them down range. Standing is athletic ability. kneeling is highly technical. Lots of expermentation and minute changes are requried.

While I am sure there are lots of great ideas in this post ( the ADD kicked in before I read them all), if you are able to shoot a 580 at 16 after only 3 years, my opinion is that you are at a level where you will need lots of practice, experimentation and a good diary and figure it out for yourself.

Very few of the points you gain above 580 will come from technical changes. Almost all will come from mental work.

[justadude]

Hannah,

Just to make sure I know which rifle you are using, this is the LG300 Junior, with the laminated wood stock? I have a basic familiarity but not detailed of the rifle.

So your rail comes about 2/3 of the way back toward the trigger guard and ends. From what you describe there is a wide spot at the end of the rail closest to the trigger guard where accessories are inserted then slid to desired location. This makes the last 1/2 to 3/4 inch of the rail closest to the trigger guard unusable.

Now I am not sure I get the right visual on the "jelly roll" but I will ask about those foam beads. If you took one out and pressed on it with your fingernail would your fingernail crush it or would the bead bend your fingernail? If your fingernail wins the contest then you should think about a more rigid filler. Over the years rice has been popular, unpopped popcorn, and dried beans or dried peas work as well. A little harder to find but less likely to attract mice are polyethylene beads. Any filler that makes the roll very compliant when you first put your foot into it but once it compresses it is done compressing and will not continue to settle through the stage is fine. Rice, unpopped popcorn, beans and peas can be purchased in bulk at discount grocers. The drawback is that if you start to fly to tournaments they are heavy.

Anyhow, without pictures there is a possibility that you have developed a position that will compensate for a sagging kneeling roll. That is just a guess.

Now, when you are in position is your left forearm at about the same angle with the ground as your left thigh? While it does not have to be perfect, one benchmark is left thigh and left forearm should form about the same angle to the ground. If your forearm is too vertical this could mean the sling is digging into the back of the wrist and the extra pressure on the lower part of the hand is restricting blood flow into the hand or possibly just restricting blood flow out of the hand. If your arm is too low then the crushing is more likely up near the first set of knuckles. Either way it hurts.

Hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about that leads you to the solution.

Cheers,
Dude

[HannahGary]

Hannah,

So your rail comes about 2/3 of the way back toward the trigger guard and ends. From what you describe there is a wide spot at the end of the rail closest to the trigger guard where accessories are inserted then slid to desired location. This makes the last 1/2 to 3/4 inch of the rail closest to the trigger guard unusable.

Now I am not sure I get the right visual on the "jelly roll" but I will ask about those foam beads. If you took one out and pressed on it with your fingernail would your fingernail crush it or would the bead bend your fingernail?
Anyhow, without pictures there is a possibility that you have developed a position that will compensate for a sagging kneeling roll. That is just a guess.

Now, when you are in position is your left forearm at about the same angle with the ground as your left thigh? While it does not have to be perfect, one benchmark is left thigh and left forearm should form about the same angle to the ground. If your forearm is too vertical this could mean the sling is digging into the back of the wrist and the extra pressure on the lower part of the hand is restricting blood flow into the hand or possibly just restricting blood flow out of the hand. If your arm is too low then the crushing is more likely up near the first set of knuckles. Either way it hurts.

Hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about that leads you to the solution.

Cheers,
Dude

To me it looks like about 2-3 inches of the rail is unusable so my arm has to be almost lay down flat when I get in position cause my arm won't reach that far...if that makes any sense. And about the beads. They are super tiny and they are pretty firm. The kneeling roll is packed stiff with them. And thanks to all of you. Yall have given me a lot to think about so hopefully I'll get the problem fixed

[rmarsh]

Hannah,

You stated your kneeling role is "packed full". Without seeing your kneeling roll, I would guess from that satement that you have way too much fill in your roll. If it is still filled like if came new, you probably need to remove half of it. I know that has nothing to do with your hand hurting.....

[HannahGary]

Hannah,

You stated your kneeling role is "packed full". Without seeing your kneeling roll, I would guess from that satement that you have way too much fill in your roll. If it is still filled like if came new, you probably need to remove half of it. I know that has nothing to do with your hand hurting.....

Well it can still form around my ankle but it's full enough that there isn't just a bunch of empty space in it

[justadude]

Hannah,

I am not sure I follow how 2 - 3 inches of your rail is unusable. Any chance you could take a picture of it so I can understand the problem better?

For the time being it sounds like the stuffing for your roll is adequate. The thing to be aware of or for is the roll slowly crushing during a match or stage. More of an issue for heavier shooters and it sounds like you are fairly light.

Now, the funny thing is here, as pointed out, it sounds like the roll might be overstuffed. Overstuffed can lead to ankle pain as easily as understuffed. The next hidden dynamic is that the taller the roll gets, usually the taller the position gets. This is typically made up by increasing the angle of the sling arm. This can lead to an extreme angle at the sling wrist and a painful, unstable position.

From what you describe your arm is flat (which causes too much pressure and resulting pain for a different reason.) While it is likely your roll will eventually need a bit of tuning it is not likely the root of your current issue.

I am coming back to your statement about the last 2-3 inches of the rail being unusable. I will have to think about that for a while. It is tough to build a position if you cannot get some points, like the sling hand, firmly and comfortably welded to the rifle.

In the meantime attaching pictures to these posts is not too hard, you just have to make sure they are compressed to less than 256k.

'Dude

[rmarsh]

Hannah,

One piece of advice I can give you that I am comfident in.... You are doing the right thing by asking questions and experimenting. All the great shooters learn everything they can from the best coaches and shooters they can find. Then, eventually they end up going their own way and putting their own unique little adaptations to what they have been taught. Keep being curious and trying new things!

I don't know "Dude", but from what little I know about this game, he sounds very knowledgable and willing to help. Take advantage of that.

As far as the roll. My daughter (age 14) is coached by Troy Bassham, a former world class competitor. I just know when he started working with her he took her roll that I was thinking needed MORE fill and took over half of it out. I suspect you, like my daughter have a small foot. Too much in your roll keeps you from getting the proper weight distribuiton and placement on your foot. Troy likes a very low position for kneeling, lower than many coaches. He was a great kneeling shooter, but many prefer a higher position.

Unless I see something specific I can help you with. I will check out of this thread and let you work with Dude as he is much more knowledgable than I. It would be great if you could post some pics, and I hope you keep this thread on here rather than going private email. I enjoy watching these type of discussions and gernerally learn something important myself. Keep after it, and best wishes with your shooting!!
Rick