The first round cuttoff/invites were posted yesterday here:
http://www.usashooting.org/7-events/njosc
A little surprised it wasnt rolled out with much fanfare or at least a press release or comment on the USA Shooting Facebook page. Anyhow, dont get too excited as this year they decided the first round cutoff would just be state champions and autoqualifiers. They didnt lower the score to fill the range. Second round cutoff scores will be "at a future undetermined date" and the scores will be lowered to fill the range,
Congratulations to all the youth who work hard all year and participate in the JOSC process, and all the youth that have earned the ability to be invited to the National Competition!
USAS NJOSC First Round Invites
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Re: USAS NJOSC First Round Invites
This effectively eliminates the "old" second round invite.COBelties wrote:They didn't lower the score to fill the range. Second round cutoff scores will be "at a future undetermined date" and the scores will be lowered to fill the range.
COBelties ... your observations are correct.
We've had staff changes at USAS these past few years, and it seems that the rationale for the methods that were used in the past are not being passed down as institutional knowledge.
In prior years (as far back as 2006 for me) the 1st round invites were always Autos, State Champs, and then fill to range capacity. 2nd round filled the slots from the declined 1st round invites.
Last year they did away with "at-large" shooters and instituted the "you shoot from the state of your legal residency" concept. The purpose of this was to combine all of one state's shooters and pick the invite "champion" from that state pool ... but they are not doing that. Shooters that fire in another state are not eligible for that state championship AND are not being pooled to their state of residence for their own state championship. Some states don't have qualifiers ... others are shooters that temporarily live out of their state of residence (example: almost all intercollegiate shooters). These shooters are losing on 2 fronts.
I never liked this idea as I'd rather have a shooter that I knew would score an Auto fire as an "at large" which let the next in line take the State Champ slot (pretty easy in J3 & J2 ... very risky in J1).
Doing it the way it is being done this year there will probably be fewer shooters invited. I'm irked because as a state host and coach, my job (well, as I see it) is to get as many kids the opportunity to shoot in the JOs. This year USAS, because of the method used, is limiting numbers of shooters invited. This to me is an episode of cross purposes.
Some have noted to me that this may be because of limited number of dorm rooms... but if that is so, there is still no reason to limit the number of shooters in the event. If they really want to come & shoot there are plenty of hotel rooms in Colo Springs.
We've had staff changes at USAS these past few years, and it seems that the rationale for the methods that were used in the past are not being passed down as institutional knowledge.
In prior years (as far back as 2006 for me) the 1st round invites were always Autos, State Champs, and then fill to range capacity. 2nd round filled the slots from the declined 1st round invites.
Last year they did away with "at-large" shooters and instituted the "you shoot from the state of your legal residency" concept. The purpose of this was to combine all of one state's shooters and pick the invite "champion" from that state pool ... but they are not doing that. Shooters that fire in another state are not eligible for that state championship AND are not being pooled to their state of residence for their own state championship. Some states don't have qualifiers ... others are shooters that temporarily live out of their state of residence (example: almost all intercollegiate shooters). These shooters are losing on 2 fronts.
I never liked this idea as I'd rather have a shooter that I knew would score an Auto fire as an "at large" which let the next in line take the State Champ slot (pretty easy in J3 & J2 ... very risky in J1).
Doing it the way it is being done this year there will probably be fewer shooters invited. I'm irked because as a state host and coach, my job (well, as I see it) is to get as many kids the opportunity to shoot in the JOs. This year USAS, because of the method used, is limiting numbers of shooters invited. This to me is an episode of cross purposes.
Some have noted to me that this may be because of limited number of dorm rooms... but if that is so, there is still no reason to limit the number of shooters in the event. If they really want to come & shoot there are plenty of hotel rooms in Colo Springs.
As an aside (sorta) ... compare 2012 & 2013 1st round invite numbers:
(Years prior to 2012 are similar (+/-5 or 6) to 2012)
WAR --- 2012-110 2013-60
WSB --- 2012-76 2013- 51
MAR --- 2012-112 2013-59
MSB --- 2012-72 2013-46
======================
Now as an RO at the JO's I know we run 2 AR relays per day and 3 SB relays per day. Thats about 112 firing points for Air per day and 25 firing points per day SBR. (OK .... w/o hospitals)
If you state you will fill to range capacity in the host program, this years numbers are not even close. So there was a disconnect here.
Even if you look at the numbers of shooters firing last year:
WAR - 100
WSB - 68
MAR - 101
MSB - 61
There could have been a significant amount of filling in for 1st round this year to give more shooters the opportunity to decline on the 1st round and then fill in with 2nd.
(Years prior to 2012 are similar (+/-5 or 6) to 2012)
WAR --- 2012-110 2013-60
WSB --- 2012-76 2013- 51
MAR --- 2012-112 2013-59
MSB --- 2012-72 2013-46
======================
Now as an RO at the JO's I know we run 2 AR relays per day and 3 SB relays per day. Thats about 112 firing points for Air per day and 25 firing points per day SBR. (OK .... w/o hospitals)
If you state you will fill to range capacity in the host program, this years numbers are not even close. So there was a disconnect here.
Even if you look at the numbers of shooters firing last year:
WAR - 100
WSB - 68
MAR - 101
MSB - 61
There could have been a significant amount of filling in for 1st round this year to give more shooters the opportunity to decline on the 1st round and then fill in with 2nd.
I feel that is a very valid point regarding the JOSC invitational program which does clearly state they will provide invites up to range capacity. The more I thought on it this weekend the more of the same conclusion I share with you, it really does hurt the second round and there is the potential for several vacancies to be made that would otherwise be filled by hopeful junior shooters.
Yes this is what they said.
"• Invitations will be issued based off of the following cut-off scores (keep in mind, if needed scores will be lowered to invite up to range capacity):"
It also makes difference now if you shoot in state or out of state. I know that had this been stated at the time that some kids would have chose to shoot instate for the state championship, but felt they could shoot an invite score. Next year they won't take the chance.
Another issue not mentioned is cost. For some the ability to stay at the OTC made it affordable. How many second round invites will stay home because of the added cost of a hotel, and transportation. Half the experience of the JO was the ability to stay in the dorms and socialize.
"• Invitations will be issued based off of the following cut-off scores (keep in mind, if needed scores will be lowered to invite up to range capacity):"
It also makes difference now if you shoot in state or out of state. I know that had this been stated at the time that some kids would have chose to shoot instate for the state championship, but felt they could shoot an invite score. Next year they won't take the chance.
Another issue not mentioned is cost. For some the ability to stay at the OTC made it affordable. How many second round invites will stay home because of the added cost of a hotel, and transportation. Half the experience of the JO was the ability to stay in the dorms and socialize.
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Maxicooper
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:06 am
- Location: Ellicott City, MD
JHMARTIN is correct. we have a National jr. team member in our state and she would have shot "at large" allowing another shooter to attend the national match. Since she is only 16 years old this situation will repeat for 4 years. Some of my shooters shot very good scores, but not elite level scores, and they may never have the chance to attend the match at the OTC.
Im sure someone brighter than me made a perfectly rationalized decision, and knowing that I'm making an argument for lowering the bar in order to increase competition, I'm a fully aware that the "then your youth shooters should meet the autoqualifier score if they want to attend NJOSC" backhanded comment, it would be nice to hear the whys and whats. This becomes more important as it was identified how it (the first round cutoffs) would be determined and it seems to have strayed from that path.
Perhaps in my off time I may wander into Tylers or Michaels office during the RMRC and see if I can get anything more revealed. I did hear the "perhaps they dont have enough rooms" for a base speculative reason, but it seems to be a strange decision to limit versus offering rooms as discussed above. Certainly my shooters and the community would support them if it really came down to having to afford a hotel room.
Perhaps in my off time I may wander into Tylers or Michaels office during the RMRC and see if I can get anything more revealed. I did hear the "perhaps they dont have enough rooms" for a base speculative reason, but it seems to be a strange decision to limit versus offering rooms as discussed above. Certainly my shooters and the community would support them if it really came down to having to afford a hotel room.
2nd round
jhmartin wrote:COBelties ... your observations are correct.
Some have noted to me that this may be because of limited number of dorm rooms... but if that is so, there is still no reason to limit the number of shooters in the event. If they really want to come & shoot there are plenty of hotel rooms in Colo Springs.
Perhaps, since 2nd round invitees are not automatically eligible to stay in dorms there will more 2nd round invitations sent out?
Re: 2nd round
Incorrect ... they can ONLY invite up to range capacity, minus a few hospitals, else risk too many shooters attending.caveman wrote:Perhaps, since 2nd round invitees are not automatically eligible to stay in dorms there will more 2nd round invitations sent out?
There are a significant number who decline due to school, travel, and now CMP holding their national qualifying regionals on the same dates.
The reason to fill out the range in the 1st round is to get as many of those declines out of the way early and get more of the shooters an invite in the 2nd round ... which still have significant declines.
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shooter'sdad
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 1:43 pm
- Location: Georgetown, KY
You should have received an email notification last Friday. If you did not, then the email address that was on the entry form may not have been correct (If her member number is in the list)shooter'sdad wrote:I know the scores for those that qualified in the first round are listed on the USAS site and my daughter did qualify, but when should we expect the invite and information by mail from USAS?
Thanks
Hoyt
If there are questions call Tyler Anderson at USAS.
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redschietti
- Posts: 386
- Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:31 pm
I have no idea what USA shooting is thinking, this is just my rant.
Let me put a different twist on it. The goal should be to find and develope the best shooters in the world. Lowering the bar to the best 100 in WAR for example does nothing to accomplish that. Inviting a short list, like this year, will raise the standard next year...scores will go up! That is a goal right? I hate hearing coaches say "last years first round invite was xyz...make that your goal"....crap crap crap! Make the automatic invite the goal and if you miss it, you will almost certainly make the cut.
I like the new "way." It will drive shooters to a higher level and the range will still be full, just like everyother year, with the same shooters as every other year.
Let me put a different twist on it. The goal should be to find and develope the best shooters in the world. Lowering the bar to the best 100 in WAR for example does nothing to accomplish that. Inviting a short list, like this year, will raise the standard next year...scores will go up! That is a goal right? I hate hearing coaches say "last years first round invite was xyz...make that your goal"....crap crap crap! Make the automatic invite the goal and if you miss it, you will almost certainly make the cut.
I like the new "way." It will drive shooters to a higher level and the range will still be full, just like everyother year, with the same shooters as every other year.
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ravensedge
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:59 pm
- Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
In my observation this years 1st round picks in no way represents the top shooters in the country - Just look at the scores - the list shows who shot the best in each state in one match and a few who met the auto qualifying score. Some states have several shooters scoring higher than numerous state champions that are on the list. We have J2 shooters who shot higher than 1/2 the state champions on the list that weren't invited this year. The scores they shot were well above the first round invites for the last couple years.
Pushing the invites to the 2nd round really adds a burden on anyone having to travel a long distance as well. Check out the price of a last minute airline ticket from Alaska to Colorado
Pushing the invites to the 2nd round really adds a burden on anyone having to travel a long distance as well. Check out the price of a last minute airline ticket from Alaska to Colorado