Question on 10m air events (ISSF style) rule 7.9 and 8.11

[hardhit]

Hi All,

I have a question on the new defined times for the 10 meter air ISSF events.
Do we have now since the introduction of the new rules different times between air rifle and air pistol?

Last year for both events for men the time was 1hr 45min for men and 1hr 15min for women, now when you check the ISSF rule book then under section 7.9 (rifle) it's specified that for both paper and electronic targets the time is 1hr 15min for men and 50min for women. When one then checks section 8.11 (pistol) then it's specified that the time is 1hr 15min for men and 50min for women when using electronic targets and it's 1hr 30min and 60min when using paper targets.

Do we really have a difference or did they make a mistake when creating the rule book.

Regards,

[RobStubbs]

Air rifle and pistol are both the same times. I've not spotted an error but don't doubt there could be between the sections.

Rob.

[David Levene]

Yes there is a time difference when using paper targets.

Based on the rifle events tables in previous rules I see no reason to believe it was a mistake.

[TB]

In the finale there is also a difference. Riffel shooters have additional sighters after the presentation of the shooters. Pistol shooters does not they start the final right after the presentation. I wonder why there is this difference?

[RobStubbs]

Yes there is a time difference when using paper targets.

Based on the rifle events tables in previous rules I see no reason to believe it was a mistake.

It's seems odd that there would be an extra 15 mins added to AP for paper targets and not for AR. Both shooting processes are identical and one could argue returning targets for air rifle is more time consuming than it is for pistol.

Rob.

[taz]

This weekend I participated in one of a series of matches for the selection of the national team for 10m air. This was the first match we shot with the new rules.
The matches were shot on paper targets. For the rifle guys it was 1:15 whereas for us (pistol) 1:30.
I don't understand why there is a difference in time, but if these are the rules then they will be followed, until the issf issues a correction (if there was a mistake in the first place).

[Brian G]

Considering the difference in the layout of the two tables, I would suggest that the Pistol and Rifle committees do not talk to each other.

[Joakim]

In the finale there is also a difference. Riffel shooters have additional sighters after the presentation of the shooters. Pistol shooters does not they start the final right after the presentation. I wonder why there is this difference?

I think no extra sighters were intended from the beginning, i.e. when the presentation was moved in the first place, but some rifle shooters protested, and they were added. Now, presumably, the ISSF has realized that pistol shooters have nothing against retaking their positions and just dry-firing before starting the final. From an audience viewpoint, this is much better (I'd almost go so far as to say that having the extra sighters negates the entire point of moving the presentation). But they haven't been able to convince the rifle shooters. I'm not sure why an air rifle shooter wouldn't be able to retake his position without extra sighters, but I can see the point a little better for the prone final.

[jhmartin]

Considering the difference in the layout of the two tables, I would suggest that the Pistol and Rifle committees do not talk to each other.

Say it's not true!

The reduced timelines are supposed to make the sport more "exciting" for those watching it on TV.
(It used to be like watching an oil painting dry ... now a watercolor)

[hardhit]

Hi All,

I put the same question to the ISSF and received below response.

****
Brigitte - ISSF HQ <brigitte@issf-sports.org>
09:58 (9 hours ago)

to me
Dear Mr. Pallen,

We thank you for your email and confirm that there is a different between the times for pistol and rifle. The pistol experts have still requested a time difference for paper and electronic targets but the rifle experts did not request a difference.

We thank you for your interest and remain

With best regards

Franz Schreiber
ISSF Secretary General
Bavariaring 21, 80336 Munich, Germany
munich@issf-sports.org www.issf-sports.org

****

So the rifle expert deemed that we could do with 15 minutes less which I don't get how they can made such a decision. Both Pistol and rifle are equally affected by the speed of the lanes target transport machines

[taz]

Both Pistol and rifle are equally affected by the speed of the lanes target transport machines

Not true. Pistol targets are bigger. The bigger surface causes greater wind resistance thus slowing down the motor that moves the targets.
Oh, and rifles shoot the pellets at higher velocities than pistols so they reach the targets faster.

[dschaller]

As a pistol shooter, I would have to agree! (grin!!!)

[Grzegorz]

I am affried the given answer in some way confirms the supposition made by Brian G :-)
I bet it gonna be changed for the 2nd edition. At least ... I hope ;-)

[RobStubbs]

I am affried the given answer in some way confirms the supposition made by Brian G :-)
I bet it gonna be changed for the 2nd edition. At least ... I hope ;-)

It would make sense for them to be the same, but I'm not sure how high up the agenda common sense comes...

Rob.

[Grzegorz]

Some corrections surely will be done. This is not surprising as so many changes were introduced.

2013 is considered as a "test time" for the new rules. And there are many questions of course. For example, we have recently asked ISSF which shoulder in standing position is considered in the rule 7.5.8.3 (they are surely not at the same height)? We have got the answer, it is advised to keep a rifle rest as not higher than a left shoulder (righthanded shooter) because it is up to a jury decision.

Next question - what about "too many shots" in 3-shots series (for paper targets)? I suppose it will be clarified in the 2nd edition.

Another one. What about "pistol boxes" - rules 6.11.10c, 8.6.2 and 8.6.3 are not clear to me (maybe it is just a problem of my English).

So, it is time to look for, as many as possible, problems, possible misinterpretations, etc.

[David Levene]

Another one. What about "pistol boxes" - rules 6.11.10c, 8.6.2 and 8.6.3 are not clear to me (maybe it is just a problem of my English).

My reading of 8.6.2 & 8.6.3 is:-

1) If the bench is below 700mm high then you may use a pistol box or stand to bring the total height up to a maximum of 1000mm.

2) If the bench is from 700mm to 1000mm high then you may not use a pistol box but may use a pistol stand to bring the total height up to a maximum of 1000mm.

I checked this with the Chairman of the ISSF Pistol Committee who agreed.

[dschaller]

And where does one learn the difference between a prohibited pistol "box" and allowed pistol "stand"?

[David Levene]

And where does one learn the difference between a prohibited pistol "box" and allowed pistol "stand"?

Barring any further definition I suppose one resorts to common sense :-)

[RobStubbs]

And where does one learn the difference between a prohibited pistol "box" and allowed pistol "stand"?

Barring any further definition I suppose one resorts to common sense :-)

And I would suggest, read the relevant rules.

Rob.

[FrankD]

We thank you for your email and confirm that there is a different between the times for pistol and rifle. The pistol experts have still requested a time difference for paper and electronic targets but the rifle experts did not request a difference.

We thank you for your interest and remain

With best regards

Franz Schreiber
ISSF Secretary General

This is an other funny joke, isn't it?


Regards from Germany

Frank