Modifying Grip -- to Add or Subtract?

jabberwo · Post by **jabberwo** » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:09 pm

Hi,

I have a pretty new K 10 with a medium grip on it. In the attached picture you can see I used modeling clay to test customizing the grip it to point straight - it was naturally low left at 7 o'clock with a light grip. Never having modified a grip before, figured a test drive would be a good idea.

I was surprised how much I had to add. Now I'm wondering if I would be better off starting with a large grip and sand it down versus adding this much wood putty to the medium grip. Pardini USA recommended the medium grip based on my hand measurements.

Thoughts from those who have been there before?

Thanks,
jab

John Marchant · Post by **John Marchant** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:42 am

You have added quite a bit of weight to the grip. Does this restyle achieve what you set out to do? Is the grip comfortable and in maximum contact with your hand? Has the position of your trigger finger, 3rd and 4th fingers moved to be correct? The placement of the fingers and pressure on the middle pad is very important. Lots of questions.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:27 am

Your hand print in the putty seems a bit odd. No finger pressure along the front, not squashing of the putty from fingers 2, 3 and 4 with their second bones perpendicular to the barrel? If that's the case then I'd definitely suggest a large grip and some carving. You really are likely to want pressure front to back, as side to side is secondary at best and some would say there should be none or close to none.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:27 am

(Sorry, somehow repeated the same comment here and can't delete it.)

jabberwo · Post by **jabberwo** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:08 am

Thanks for your thoughts.

My goal was to move the front sight up and right. So I did indeed add a lot in the back were the heel of the palm should touch the grip. It wasn't touching if I rotated the pistol in my hand so that sights lined up with no side-to-side manipulation of my wrist. It also changed the rake a little so that my natural hold would have the front sight up.

I didn't add much at all at the palm-finger ridge because I didn't want to negate what I added in the back, and twist the pistol back left. There is enough there that I can feel something I think will be a repeatable place to find. But, this is not a finished grip - its just a mock-up using clay. I stopped at this point because of how much I added.

Yes my middle and ring finger both have their second sections on the front of the grip and perpendicular to the barrel -- haven't tried drawing a line on them like John but will tonight.

I do think I may have added to much to the ball. I wanted to fill it, there was inconsistent grip pressure before because it didn't fill my hand. Hard to say for sure because the clay is slimy and as you can see from every line of my hand showing up, pretty squishy even for what I consider a light grip.

Trigger will have to be adjusted once I have a good fit of the hand. All the grip fitting guides out there put that as last so I haven't worried about it yet.

Weight doesn't bother me. I'm strong enough to hold it up. And putting it here on the grip right on at the CG should have least impact. No?

Thanks, keep thoughts, ideas and questions coming!
-= jab

Brian G · Post by **Brian G** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:31 pm

jabberwo wrote:
Weight doesn't bother me. I'm strong enough to hold it up. And putting it here on the grip right on at the CG should have least impact. No?

jab

Air pistol is not a weight training exercise but it is an endurance event with 60 shots plus sighters plus aborted shots so a large amount of weight added is not a good idea, especially if you are trying to pull the CG back into the grip.

Did you mean the CG of the grip (which is irrelevant) or of the complete pistol?
The CG of most pistols without any abnormal weights added is usually just in front of the trigger.

ATB whatever you decide.

FredB · Post by **FredB** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:25 am

IMHO you are defeating your purpose with all the clay you added. Try this: remove all the clay. Then see how your gun points when you wrap your fingers more and less around the grip, keeping your wrist as consistently straight as possible. You will find that the more you wrap your fingers around, the more the gun will point to the right. That's because you are rotating the gun in your hand on the vertical axis. So you need to determine at what point in the rotation the sights line up for you. If your fingers at that point in the rotation are too far around the grip to apply primarily front-to-back pressure, you need a bigger grip.

You will also find, as you rotate the gun in your hand, that the more your fingers wrap around, the higher the front sight will point. That's because your middle finger, which supports the front of the gun, gets thicker as it gets closer to where it joins your palm, thereby pushing up more on the ledge under the trigger guard. It sounds complicated in words, but it's really quite intuitive once you look for it. After you establish your horizontal point position, if the vertical point is not right, you can add or subtract a small amount of material under that ledge to make adjustments.

Only after you figure out how much to wrap your fingers, do you then start thinking about making the grip more comfortable for your hand in that position, and thereby making your ability to assume that position more repeatable. At that time you will get a sense of where you might want to start removing and/or adding material.

HTH,
FredB

jabberwo · Post by **jabberwo** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:08 pm

Thanks Fred. If I read you correctly, I did start with the premise you recommend. Aiming at the basement wall with no target with my normal grip the sights are not lined up. I rotated the pistol in my hand (leaving hand and head where they were) until the front post was centered. This caused zero contact between my the heal of my hand and the lower-back so I started by adding clay there. I also noticed very little contact on the ball of the grip by my palm because the rotation -- so filled in that area, not to make grip bigger, just to get consistent contact. With that I was able to get the center of the second section of my middle and ring finger to line up under the barrel -- though the web of my hand is not exactly centered on the barrel line; I'll be putting the pressure from the fingers just mentioned to the base of the thumb, not the web.

I should mention that my arm has been permanently damaged from Rugby and can not fully straighten at the elbow. I need to rotate the pistol a lot in my hand to line up with my right eye. One of the Rink 7 degree offset grips sounds interesting. I just wish someone had told me about Steyr's adjustable grips before I plunk down all my cash on a brand new K10. I am totally new to AP, shooting since Sept.

cheers,
Jab

FredB · Post by **FredB** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:43 pm

jabberwo wrote:Thanks Fred. If I read you correctly, I did start with the premise you recommend. Aiming at the basement wall with no target with my normal grip the sights are not lined up. I rotated the pistol in my hand (leaving hand and head where they were) until the front post was centered. This caused zero contact between my the heal of my hand and the lower-back so I started by adding clay there. I also noticed very little contact on the ball of the grip by my palm because the rotation -- so filled in that area, not to make grip bigger, just to get consistent contact. With that I was able to get the center of the second section of my middle and ring finger to line up under the barrel -- though the web of my hand is not exactly centered on the barrel line; I'll be putting the pressure from the fingers just mentioned to the base of the thumb, not the web.

A lot depends on the basic shape of your hand, especially the proportional relationship of finger length to palm size. However, if your hand is relatively "normal" in that respect, then I would expect an unmodified Pardini grip to fit a lot better than you describe. What you did by adding all that clay on the side was to push your palm away from the grip/gun centerline, so that you can now no longer get your web and palm heel directly behind your fingers and in line with the recoil. I don't think that will work well for you.

Again, I would suggest removing all the clay and finding the amount of finger rotation around the grip that aligns the sights best for you. Once you have determined that, then place your hand on the grip so that you are centrally lined up at the rear, and try to figure out which areas of the grip are keeping your fingers from wrapping far enough around to align the sights. I suspect you'll find that the grip's palm swell center is a little offset from the center of your palm, and/or the vertical finger ridge (between fingers and palm) is offset. Think about removing a little material to shift those contact points in the direction you want. In general I've found that it's best to fit a grip by removing material before adding it. And just do a little at a time, take a break, and try it for a while. Most decent grips - and that includes Pardini grips - require a lot less modification than people tend to do. I've got a number of grips that are just shells and putty to remind me of this concept.

HTH,
FredB

shooter560 · Post by **shooter560** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:43 am

jabberwo

Not sure if you've seen this thread thats also running at the same time, there are a couple of good links to info which I'm sure will help matters

http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... highlight=

TargetTalk

Modifying Grip -- to Add or Subtract?

Modifying Grip -- to Add or Subtract?

different approach