6.2.2.2 Safety flags

[JamesH]

Disqualifying people after the event isn't going to put someone's eye back in.

Possibly loaded guns, including firearms, plus the sloppy handling you usually see at EQ needs some fixing.

I don't see the value on the range though, if you can see down the breech there's no real need, maybe just airguns.

[brakarzac]

Disqualifying people after the event isn't going to put someone's eye back in.

Possibly loaded guns, including firearms, plus the sloppy handling you usually see at EQ needs some fixing.

I don't see the value on the range though, if you can see down the breech there's no real need, maybe just airguns.

I can honestly say that I have never seen an accident at EC in my years of shooting, and I do shoot a lot of competitions...

As for losing an eye, it would be easier to ensure that all persons within the EC wear protective glasses!

It doesnt matter how you try to justify this flag issue, I and many other shooters will see it as a pain in the rear and does nothing but over regulate our sport even further!!!

Cheers
Brad

[robf]

Right and that's been a problem in reality with people accidentally shooting themselves or others ? It's all very good coming up with hypothetical scenarios for safety 'problems' that don't happen.

Well... I once shot a hole in the ceiling during equipment control when I tested a pistol which was handed to me with a pellet still in the barrel.

Of all the new rules this one is the least intrusive and I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with it.

So it would appear the practice of not checking safe and firing a pistol not over the firing line is the issue.

If you have a breach flag in you can't fire the rifle or pistol. If you take it out to fire it it can't be shown safe even if you use a full length version.

Pull triggers over a firing line. Not behind and no where near. How many clubs allow people to piss around with trigger weight adjustments etc in the club or kit room. It's a disciplinary in the indoor clubs I can think of.

You prevent incidents by never assuming a gun is unloaded, always being shown clear (not assuming it is when being passed it) and not pointing it at anyone and not fiddling with triggers away from the line.

The idea that a bit of plastic is going to help because it's there and when it's not is going to do nothing to dissuade poor practice. Do Ec over the line where should it be discharged it won't matter.

[ChamaRob]

Face it most ROs are great. Most are experienced shooter some maybe qualified gunsmiths. But there is that 1% who are BOZOs. If a foot of trimmer string means that they do not have to handle my gun that is enough for me.

[J.Hoes]

A bit challenging: Steyr LP5.
A piece of 1/16 strimmer wire, fed from the muzzle end, takes the bend in the magazine well.

Greetings Hans.

[j-team]

Do Ec over the line where should it be discharged it won't matter.

EC (trigger weight) must be done with the barrel vertical, so no matter where you are it's not "a safe direction".

If the pistol (or rifle) arrives at EC with the trimmer line through the barrel at least you know there is no pellet left in there (either in the breech, or half way up the barrel). People can crap on about poor safety preceedure all they like but I'm yet to meet anyone who can see around corners, and that's what you would need to do to visually clear almost all airguns as the breech is not easily viewed.

The practise of discarging gas down range as the pistols are cleared at the end of the match is a good one and we do that here in New Zealand. But, that's only good if the last time the pistol was used was in a structured match. Most of the time, the previous time the pistol has been used is an unstructured training session.

[Gerard]

People can crap on about poor safety preceedure all they like but I'm yet to meet anyone who can see around corners, and that's what you would need to do to visually clear almost all airguns as the breech is not easily viewed.

Sure enough, eyes don't go around corners. but a small inspection mirror placed at either end of the barrel and aiming the other end at even a weak light source (reflected light from a ceiling or wall) is sufficient to see whether the barrel is clear or not. I see around corners all the time, inspecting the insides of violins and other instruments. Use a $1 plastic dental mirror as it can't chip varnish. Such a thing takes very little practice to learn, just have to get used to placing it at the proper angle.

But asking officials to do their job in a safe manner makes it harder for the officials. Making things harder for the shooters is so much easier... when the officials are the ones making the rules. At my last competition I was twice interrupted in my course of fire (10m AP, Provincial championship) by the head RO who happens to be an ISSF-certified official and trainer of officials. She was bugging me to "please make sure your front foot isn't forward of the bench edge" as she and the other officials and volunteers had neglected to tape a line onto the floor. I don't know if she was hassling other shooters as I was trying to maintain concentration on my own shooting, just know that she contributed to the worst first-30 I'd shot all year. Made up for it with a great second-half, but was left with a bitter taste. My toe had never come closer than 1cm from the bench edge (plywood on steel legs a couple of feet above), something I'm trained to see owing to my long experience in construction and measurement generally. I didn't move and she stopped bugging me. I approached her afterwards and suggested, very politely, that if she wasn't going to take the trouble to tape off the foul line, she might consider using a cheap laser and shining it down the line from either end of the bench row to see if anyone's toes lit up. Hadn't occurred to her... too much trouble to get an official to think, I suppose.

Seems a bit similar to me with this flag argument. Sure, it's a guarantee there's nothing in the barrel. But there are all sorts of opportunities for shooters to be idiots and sweep the audience or otherwise misbehave, loaded or not. Cutting down on those opportunities with a flag may help prevent a rare injury, but better training for all involved, shooters and officials alike, is of greater value. If everyone learns the basics and practices them, no one will be hurt, and as with all these clothing changes and weapon changes making so much expensive equipment obsolete, no one will have cause to become so upset as to start a petition. The short paragraph in the new rules explaining that we must become a more media-friendly sport says it all unfortunately; this stuff has NOTHING to do with shooting and everything to do with money.

[JamesH]

Disqualifying people after the event isn't going to put someone's eye back in.

Possibly loaded guns, including firearms, plus the sloppy handling you usually see at EQ needs some fixing.

I don't see the value on the range though, if you can see down the breech there's no real need, maybe just airguns.

I can honestly say that I have never seen an accident at EC in my years of shooting, and I do shoot a lot of competitions...

As for losing an eye, it would be easier to ensure that all persons within the EC wear protective glasses!

It doesnt matter how you try to justify this flag issue, I and many other shooters will see it as a pain in the rear and does nothing but over regulate our sport even further!!!

Cheers
Brad

Its a pain in the neck, but then I've never liked seeing unchecked air-pistols (you can't see around a corner) cocked and discharged into the ceiling.
Either they chamber should be checked or EC for airguns should be on a range, and the airpistol discharged pointing down range before having its trigger checked.
There's a certain amount of sloppy handling at most ECs, the air-pistols are cocked pointing in any direction and then discharged into the ceiling.

I'm never particularly comfortable at EC as it is, with multiple firearms being uncased and opened in various directions.

I've never seen an accident at EC either, nor do I want to.

[nc513]

She was bugging me to "please make sure your front foot isn't forward of the bench edge" as she and the other officials and volunteers had neglected to tape a line onto the floor.

Had she forgotten about rule 6.3.15.2.1: "The nearest edge of the bench or stand must be placed 10 cm forward of the 10 m Firing line"?

[Brian G]

Do Ec over the line where should it be discharged it won't matter.

How does that work when barrels must be held vertically when testing the trigger? ;-)

[rmca]

Do Ec over the line where should it be discharged it won't matter.

How does that work when barrels must be held vertically when testing the trigger? ;-)

Shoot once to clear the barrel over the line and down range, and then check the trigger... dah... ;)

[brakarzac]

Spencer,

What have you decided on for Australia for the safety flag issue?
As the new year is around the corner, and most shooters i have spoken too have laughed at the idea and think its just going to ge too much effort for something we havent really had a problem with!!!

As our NRC director, can you advise what we need?
As i wont be putting a bore snake up the barrel of my pistols every 5 shots!!!

Cheers
Brad

[Spencer]

Spencer,

What have you decided on for Australia for the safety flag issue?
As the new year is around the corner, and most shooters i have spoken too have laughed at the idea and think its just going to ge too much effort for something we havent really had a problem with!!!

As our NRC director, can you advise what we need?
As i wont be putting a bore snake up the barrel of my pistols every 5 shots!!!

Cheers
Brad

2013 ISSF rules will not be adopted by PA until 2 April (though presumably in force for the AISL competitions from 1 January

Agree that most shooters at competitions do the right thing - most, but not all...

[Brian G]

2013 ISSF rules will not be adopted by PA until 2 April (though presumably in force for the AISL competitions from 1 January

Agree that most shooters at competitions do the right thing - most, but not all...

April 1st would be more suitable ;-)

[brakarzac]

Spencer,

What have you decided on for Australia for the safety flag issue?
As the new year is around the corner, and most shooters i have spoken too have laughed at the idea and think its just going to ge too much effort for something we havent really had a problem with!!!

As our NRC director, can you advise what we need?
As i wont be putting a bore snake up the barrel of my pistols every 5 shots!!!

Cheers
Brad

2013 ISSF rules will not be adopted by PA until 2 April (though presumably in force for the AISL competitions from 1 January

Agree that most shooters at competitions do the right thing - most, but not all...

Thanks Spencer,

Any new suggestions on flags?
As I can't get a bore snake through my .22s or air pistol!!!

Cheers
Brad

[Spencer]

Thanks Spencer,

Any new suggestions on flags?
As I can't get a bore snake through my .22s or air pistol!!!

Cheers
Brad

currently working on a document - needs a bit more tweakng and some photos: another day or so.

[brakarzac]

Hi Spencer,

The first Aus Cup is a mere 4 weeks away, can you advise what you have set out for the safety flag rule please?

As I dont want to find out on the day or day before and not have time to meet the new (rather silly) rules the ISSF have set forward!

Cheers
Brad

[rloebler]

I knocked up a quick Air Pistol flag this morning at work. It's made from a stainless steel two-way radio antenna covered in red heat shrink. Not sure if it will suffice. What do you think ? The buffer area at the front prevents the hard metal rod pushing up against the pellet loading ram. Being solid it passes through compensators with ease.

[David Levene]

I knocked up a quick Air Pistol flag this morning at work. It's made from a stainless steel two-way radio antenna covered in red heat shrink. Not sure if it will suffice. What do you think ? The buffer area at the front prevents the hard metal rod pushing up against the pellet loading ram. Being solid it passes through compensators with ease.

Under the latest ISSF Interpretations, "Safety flags must be of a bright color that Range Officers can easily see at a distance. Fluorescent orange or a similar bright color is recommended.?

Is it flexible enough so that it can come outside of the gun at both ends (which is the clear intention)?

[rloebler]

I knocked up a quick Air Pistol flag this morning at work. It's made from a stainless steel two-way radio antenna covered in red heat shrink. Not sure if it will suffice. What do you think ? The buffer area at the front prevents the hard metal rod pushing up against the pellet loading ram. Being solid it passes through compensators with ease.

Under the latest ISSF Interpretations, "Safety flags must be of a bright color that Range Officers can easily see at a distance. Fluorescent orange or a similar bright color is recommended.?

Is it flexible enough so that it can come outside of the gun at both ends (which is the clear intention)?

I read that bit about extending outside the gun about five minutes after I posted the pic. The rod is stiff and thus could not bend to extend outside of the breach area. On that basis it's probably not good enough.