6.2.2.2 Safety flags

David M · Post by **David M** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:01 am

I wonder about a cleaning rod with a fluro green or orange mop ?

brakarzac · Post by **brakarzac** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:07 am

David M wrote:I wonder about a cleaning rod with a fluro green or orange mop ?

If thats ok for Australia, it sounds like a good idea David.
the only problem I see is finding a rod and mop to suit the Morini CM162

cheers
Brad

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:19 am

RobStubbs wrote:
David Levene wrote:
brakarzac wrote:....what is wrong with the old system of the RO walking along and physically inspecting each firearm on the line.
If you were looking at a Morini CM162EI, for example, it is impossible to tell whether there is a pellet seated in the chamber without either looking down the barrel from the front sight or passing something through the barrel.
Right and that's been a problem in reality with people accidentally shooting themselves or others ? It's all very good coming up with hypothetical scenarios for safety 'problems' that don't happen.

Are you suggesting that range officers never find anything wrong when checking guns at the end of a match. If so then I can assure you that you are VERY wrong.

On some guns it is impossible to check that there isn't a seated pellet without passing something through the barrel. This will just allow range officers to do their job properly (which hasn't always been possible/practical up to now).

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:33 am

I don't think I ever said RO's never find problems but that's not the point in discussion. How many times have you found a loaded gun ? Safety is about behaviours and enforcing the current safety rules. A gun with breech open can't fire a pellet. As I recall most incidents happen at EQ and I don't see anything about flags there.

Rob.

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:53 am

RobStubbs wrote:How many times have you found a loaded gun ?

Over the years, several.

How many of the pellets hitting the ceiling at EC are leftovers from the previous shoot: it's impossible to know.

If all airguns have a "through barrel" flag inserted before they can be cased then it can't do any harm (and might do some good).

brakarzac · Post by **brakarzac** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:16 pm

David Levene wrote:
RobStubbs wrote:How many times have you found a loaded gun ?
Over the years, several.

How many of the pellets hitting the ceiling at EC are leftovers from the previous shoot: it's impossible to know.

If all airguns have a "through barrel" flag inserted before they can be cased then it can't do any harm (and might do some good).

David,

As I have stated already, if someone has a pellet discharged during EC that was left behind from a previous match, then that person should be disqualified from the event. No warnings or second chances.

Now I dont know how things are done in the UK, but here in Australia. The RO clears the guns on the range at the end of the match and we then fire the pistol down range at 45 degrees (even our air pistols) before packing into our cases.

Now if someone is that lazy they just pack away without firing a shot on the empty chamber post match, they should be punished when that firearms goes through EC at the next event.

For people like me, who shoot Air Pistol 3-4 times a week in training. I will NOT be placing a flag up the barrel of my pistols until I go to an event that requires it.

Cheers
Brad

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:21 pm

brakarzac wrote: David,

As I have stated already, if someone has a pellet discharged during EC that was left behind from a previous match, then that person should be disqualified from the event. No warnings or second chances.

I think that you are still missing the point. The purpose of this rule is to prevent a pellet discharge. To make it impossible to have something in your barrel. And show to everyone (not just shooters) that safety is something that is being taken care of very serious in matches.

brakarzac wrote: Now I dont know how things are done in the UK, but here in Australia. The RO clears the guns on the range at the end of the match and we then fire the pistol down range at 45 degrees (even our air pistols) before packing into our cases.

Now if someone is that lazy they just pack away without firing a shot on the empty chamber post match, they should be punished when that firearms goes through EC at the next event.

That just means that the gun is safe after the match...

brakarzac wrote: For people like me, who shoot Air Pistol 3-4 times a week in training.

My point exactly.

Let me just say this, you will never get rid off stupidity, no matter how good the rules are, but you should try! Despite of the hassle for the rest of us...

David M · Post by **David M** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:46 pm

As a RO if I am clearing airpistols that I cannot easily see into the breech, I get the shooter to close and discharge gas downrange, then bag.
Pistol confirmed clear.

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:52 pm

And as a RO, if you are checking the trigger weight, wouldn't it be safer that the guns arrive at your desk with the flag inserted? That way there is noting in the barrel no matter how stupid/lazy/distracted/bi-polar the shooter is... :)

brakarzac · Post by **brakarzac** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:01 pm

rmca wrote:And as a RO, if you are checking the trigger weight, wouldn't it be safer that the guns arrive at your desk with the flag inserted? That way there is noting in the barrel no matter how stupid/lazy/distracted/bi-polar the shooter is... :)

Yes it would be safer to have the pistol arrive unloaded, but if the owner is so stupid and negligent to leave a pellet in the air pistol, they should be disqualified on the sport for a safety breach.

Again, the issue here is placing foreign objects inside the full length of the barrel!!!

Cheers
Brad

brakarzac · Post by **brakarzac** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:02 pm

David M wrote:As a RO if I am clearing airpistols that I cannot easily see into the breech, I get the shooter to close and discharge gas downrange, then bag.
Pistol confirmed clear.

100% agree David M, thats what the wife and I do EVERYTIME we shoot at the range, before packing up. Even when just by ourselves, we always clear each others pistols the same way.

Cheers
Brad

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:47 pm

I'm happy that for the pistol shooters this is a big deal.
As a rifle coach, we've got a bit bigger issues.

Anyway, the CBI is simple to make and keep clean. Wipe it off on your trousers or shirt before you insert it ... that's what we teach the kids.
We've been using these for about 8 years now and have not heard of one rifle barrel being ruined.
If you are REALLY worried make a bunch of them and toss the one you use after the match.

You may indeed choose to not use one in your practices ... no issue there.
I think eventually all public ranges will require these in practice sessions and certainly matches. It's getting that way here in the US.

I purchased an 86meter package of .096" (2.4mm) ROUND weed eater line back in 2005 ... still have about 10m left.
Don't get the square or "star" extruded line ... it will probably trap more dirt and be harder to clean.

I can guarantee you that when we first started this there was a real howl about stuffing this down the barrel. Especially the picking up dirt issue.
It's really a non-issue now. Again, cleaning it is simple ... easier if you keep it off the floor.

Stuff I bought years ago: (think it cost me about $10)

rmca · Post by **rmca** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:54 pm

brakarzac wrote:
rmca wrote:And as a RO, if you are checking the trigger weight, wouldn't it be safer that the guns arrive at your desk with the flag inserted? That way there is noting in the barrel no matter how stupid/lazy/distracted/bi-polar the shooter is... :)
Yes it would be safer to have the pistol arrive unloaded, but if the owner is so stupid and negligent to leave a pellet in the air pistol, they should be disqualified on the sport for a safety breach.

I agree with the disqualification on the spot and I would add a fine for good measure. But with a flag it's almost impossible for that to happened (never underestimate the resourcefulness of stupidity :) ).

brakarzac wrote: Again, the issue here is placing foreign objects inside the full length of the barrel!!!

Cheers
Brad

I can't imagine that a flag made of something soft (plastic, rubber, cloth) could harm the barrel. They shoot thousands of lead pellets over the years without losing accuracy so they are not that fragile.

I'm not to happy with sticking stuff down the barrel either but I don't think that those flags will scratch or damage the precision of the barrel. As long as you keep it clean.

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:55 am

"Damn, I would have shot 580 today but the barrel has been ruined by the safety flag".

I like the way you guys think!

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:09 am

David M wrote:I wonder about a cleaning rod with a fluro green or orange mop ?

how about a bore snake (cleans the barrel when removed)

brakarzac · Post by **brakarzac** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:45 am

Spencer wrote:
David M wrote:I wonder about a cleaning rod with a fluro green or orange mop ?
how about a bore snake (cleans the barrel when removed)

Problem with a bore snake Spencer, how do you fit into the firearm during the match without pulling apart the firearm?

Cheers
Brad

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:06 am

brakarzac wrote:
Spencer wrote:
David M wrote:I wonder about a cleaning rod with a fluro green or orange mop ?
how about a bore snake (cleans the barrel when removed)
Problem with a bore snake Spencer, how do you fit into the firearm during the match without pulling apart the firearm?

Cheers
Brad

one takes it that you do not use bore snakes

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:11 am

Out of interest, what have people got against flags.

To my mind they are a cheap and extremely quick way of checking a line of guns at the end of a match.

brakarzac · Post by **brakarzac** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:17 am

Spencer wrote:
brakarzac wrote:
Spencer wrote:
David M wrote:I wonder about a cleaning rod with a fluro green or orange mop ?
how about a bore snake (cleans the barrel when removed)
Problem with a bore snake Spencer, how do you fit into the firearm during the match without pulling apart the firearm?

Cheers
Brad
one takes it that you do not use bore snakes

He Spencer,

yes I do use them, but the .22 bore snake does NOT like going through my Hammerli barrels... So i only use them on my shotgun.

It would also be a pain for every 5 shot series to have to feed the for snake through the barrel so we can go forward, score and patch targets...

Cheers
Brad

brakarzac · Post by **brakarzac** » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:20 am

David Levene wrote:Out of interest, what have people got against flags.

To my mind they are a cheap and extremely quick way of checking a line of guns at the end of a match.

David L

A cheaper way is to actually check the guns without having to more than we already do...

As 99.7% of ranges shoot on paper targets in Australia, and most people could not care about competing at International level... why make the majority spend more money on something that we haven't needed to in the past!!!

I still stand by my comment, if a competitor has an AD during gun check... disqualify them and as one posted commented, fine them!!!

Cheers
Brad