Hi,
I'm a novice in air pistol having started with a Pardini K10 in july 2012.
I was able, with some hints from other shooters, to reach 540 occasionally, being my average of 524.
I've had some ups and downs, and I belive that mostly my problems lie in lack of confidance and concentration.
Obviously, my stance, sight allignment, stoppage, etc, needs plenty of work.
My pistol grip has been modified by a friend, and it is much more confortable than it used to be.
But I'm still struggling with a frequent "drop" in the front sight. It seems that the balance of the pistol it too forward, towards the barrel.
Is there some place where I can get information on grip forming and the determination of the balance point of the pistol?
I do realize that a coach is in order, but I'm having some difficulty in finding one in Lisbon, Portugal...
If anyone can help on these topics I would appreciate.
Thank You,
TQB
Pistol grips and balance
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
I too was finding my Pardini K10 was tending to droop too much, though my physical conditioning is good and forearm strength excellent and I put in a fair amount of practice time. It was a conscious effort to keep the nose up. Making matters more complex, I actually found the K10 a bit too light in the nose, so I added a weight mounted into a threaded hole at the front end of the trigger guard, the rod and aluminum weight combining to 65 grams. That feels about right, within 10 grams of my heavily modified Baikal 46m which does not tend to droop.
The difference was in the grip rake angle. With the Baikal, I made a custom grip with a substantially steeper rake than stock. This 'locks' my wrist effectively, where the stock grip angle felt entirely loose and made it very difficult to hold steady with the front sight. Comparing this grip to barrel relative angle between the modified 46m and the K10, I found the K10 grip was about 2 degrees more 'conservative' or more upright than the grip of the 46m with which I was comfortable.
So I added a shim about 3mm thick under the trigger guard of the K10, and carved the same amount of wood out of the back of the Rink grip's mortise (starting at about 3mm, tapering to zero about halfway down the mortise), and bolted it back on. While it could have gone slightly further... there wasn't enough wood left in the grip to quite match that of my 46m without having to add putty to the thumb web area, something I'd rather not do. It's close enough, within half a degree of a match.
The result is very comfortable and locks the wrist adequately. The two pistols feel almost the same, which is good as I tend to use the 46m for home practice (it's much quieter than the Pardini and I don't want to bug my wife or neighbours) and the K10 at the club and matches. So I'd suggest considering whether such a grip angle modification would suit you. Bear in mind that the bolt has to line up correctly to mount the grip, unless you want to get into filling and re-drilling for the bolt, something which could prove to be quite tricky to get right.
The difference was in the grip rake angle. With the Baikal, I made a custom grip with a substantially steeper rake than stock. This 'locks' my wrist effectively, where the stock grip angle felt entirely loose and made it very difficult to hold steady with the front sight. Comparing this grip to barrel relative angle between the modified 46m and the K10, I found the K10 grip was about 2 degrees more 'conservative' or more upright than the grip of the 46m with which I was comfortable.
So I added a shim about 3mm thick under the trigger guard of the K10, and carved the same amount of wood out of the back of the Rink grip's mortise (starting at about 3mm, tapering to zero about halfway down the mortise), and bolted it back on. While it could have gone slightly further... there wasn't enough wood left in the grip to quite match that of my 46m without having to add putty to the thumb web area, something I'd rather not do. It's close enough, within half a degree of a match.
The result is very comfortable and locks the wrist adequately. The two pistols feel almost the same, which is good as I tend to use the 46m for home practice (it's much quieter than the Pardini and I don't want to bug my wife or neighbours) and the K10 at the club and matches. So I'd suggest considering whether such a grip angle modification would suit you. Bear in mind that the bolt has to line up correctly to mount the grip, unless you want to get into filling and re-drilling for the bolt, something which could prove to be quite tricky to get right.
It generally tends to drop downwards during the hold.
I have to do some effort to lock the wrist and most of the times to rise the front sight through movement of the wrist, or hips.
While aiming, most of the time I have to fight this tendency to drop the front sight, introducing parasitic movements.
This also means that usually I "forget" to look at the sights, generating angular errors...
I have to do some effort to lock the wrist and most of the times to rise the front sight through movement of the wrist, or hips.
While aiming, most of the time I have to fight this tendency to drop the front sight, introducing parasitic movements.
This also means that usually I "forget" to look at the sights, generating angular errors...
I had this same problem when starting out. The problem is the natural point of aim from your wrist forward is be low the target and could even be to the right or the left of the target.
The solution for me was to adjust the rake angle of the grip so it would point at the target. I also had to move it to the right. I spent a lot of time holding my pistol (free and Air) trying to see where they wanted to point. I would go through my shot process but I would close my eyes as I would bring up my pistol and also rotate my wrist around in a circle and then aim a the target and see where it was pointing. You should repeat this many times but do not try and end up pointing at the target. Really feel where you want the pistol to point.
Changing the angle on my Toz and LP1 was a lot of work. Used lots of Quikwood (wood putty that is a 2 part epoxy wood based product) and sanding/file/dremel work. I ended up with about a 40-45deg angle on my grips so they would point at the target. I had to add about 10-12mm above my middle finger and remove wood from the grip above the web of my hand under the rear sight. Also had the build up the grip under the heal of my hand also.
After I was done I did not have any low shots and I did not see my front sight drop out of view.
The solution for me was to adjust the rake angle of the grip so it would point at the target. I also had to move it to the right. I spent a lot of time holding my pistol (free and Air) trying to see where they wanted to point. I would go through my shot process but I would close my eyes as I would bring up my pistol and also rotate my wrist around in a circle and then aim a the target and see where it was pointing. You should repeat this many times but do not try and end up pointing at the target. Really feel where you want the pistol to point.
Changing the angle on my Toz and LP1 was a lot of work. Used lots of Quikwood (wood putty that is a 2 part epoxy wood based product) and sanding/file/dremel work. I ended up with about a 40-45deg angle on my grips so they would point at the target. I had to add about 10-12mm above my middle finger and remove wood from the grip above the web of my hand under the rear sight. Also had the build up the grip under the heal of my hand also.
After I was done I did not have any low shots and I did not see my front sight drop out of view.
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C. Perkins
- Posts: 480
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:31 pm
- Location: Was a Bullseye Master
There is more than rake to adjust.
For me it was cant.
With no pistol in your hand, put it out there naturally and see where it is at in a comfortable position.
My natural point of my hand is tilted to the left a few degrees.
I have adjusted my grip on my LP1 with the proper rake and also as far as I can adjust for my left cant.
I now do not have to force the pistol to be perfectly straight to align the sights.
It just sticks out there naturaly.
Just one less thing to overcome in your hold.
Just work on sight alignment and trigger control.
I do not know if I explained this right, but ask if you need a more precise answer.
Just my .02 cents worth on grip angle.
Clarence
For me it was cant.
With no pistol in your hand, put it out there naturally and see where it is at in a comfortable position.
My natural point of my hand is tilted to the left a few degrees.
I have adjusted my grip on my LP1 with the proper rake and also as far as I can adjust for my left cant.
I now do not have to force the pistol to be perfectly straight to align the sights.
It just sticks out there naturaly.
Just one less thing to overcome in your hold.
Just work on sight alignment and trigger control.
I do not know if I explained this right, but ask if you need a more precise answer.
Just my .02 cents worth on grip angle.
Clarence
After trying to figure out my Natural Point of Aim, it seems to produce a low front sight.
As a result I'm forcing my wrist to elevate the front sight.
Since I've already modifiyed my grip I don't have that much wood on the back, between the thumb and the index finger (actually it has ruptured having small holes on either side).
To change the rake angle it seems that I only have two options:
- Buy a custom grip (Does Rink fabricate grips with increase rake angles?)
- Try to fill the back of the grip with putty and the place a shim under the trigger guard and carve out the back of the grip to accomodate the frame.
Guess I'll have to think this through...
What's your opinion on this conundrum?
As a result I'm forcing my wrist to elevate the front sight.
Since I've already modifiyed my grip I don't have that much wood on the back, between the thumb and the index finger (actually it has ruptured having small holes on either side).
To change the rake angle it seems that I only have two options:
- Buy a custom grip (Does Rink fabricate grips with increase rake angles?)
- Try to fill the back of the grip with putty and the place a shim under the trigger guard and carve out the back of the grip to accomodate the frame.
Guess I'll have to think this through...
What's your opinion on this conundrum?
Something I've recently incorporated into some of my training sessions is the use of a weak (green) Theraband during dry and live fire. Not a lot, just 20 or 30 shots a few times per week. Still playing around with how much rubber to stretch for how much 'weight' on the pistol arm, but the results are interesting. By shooting (live or dry) a number of shots with a very noticeable strain just to keep the sights on target, it becomes relatively easy to hold on target for longer when the Theraband isn't in place. It's like that trick where you stand in a door frame and push out with your hands or a while, then step away and your hands automatically rise up with no apparent effort. Rubber band exercises are relatively injury-free, so it seems at least a harmless way to develop static hold strength in my shooting arm. And for balance of course I'm simulating this in regular workouts on the left side. Don't want to court a back injury.
Therabands are highly adaptable to all sorts of exercises owing to their wide, thin structure. In this instance I'm just wrapping it around the grip, centred on the back of the grip, such that there is no influence either way to tilt the pistol. It's a neutral drag downwards on my arm, towards my foot where the other end is trapped. Adjusting tension is simple enough, just letting out or pulling in a bit of rubber at a time until it offers just the right level of challenge to keep sights on target.
And yes, of course you can further modify the grip, or order a custom grip with greater rake. Sorry, I don't know the specifics of the original Pardini K10 grip as mine came to me used with a Rink grip. Depending on your proficiency as a woodworker you might be able to chop out some wood at the back of the mortise and graft in a new piece, then re-carve the mortise further back into this new wood, then carve the new wood to fit the web of your hand... but this modifies the whole nature of the grip so I'd be a bit concerned you might be destroying whatever other fitting you've done on it. The distance increasing between web and fingers is a significant element in grip fitting, something to be considered carefully. As it turned out with my Rink, leaving a paper-thickness of original wood at the corners of the mortise was just enough tilt for my use. I'm 6' tall, and that element too has a role in grip rake - a shorter shooter might need even more rake added to grip angle in order to lock the wrist while raising the front sight sufficiently to stay on target, while a taller shooter might need less. Depends more precisely on shoulder height - some have longer necks and heads than others, so overall height isn't so significant as shoulder height. Basically there are a lot of variables and only you (and a qualified expert in AP grip fitting if one were available) will be in a position to weigh those variables and work to arrive at the perfect set of compromises.
Someone mentioned cant earlier. Unfortunately, adjusting cant on a K10 is rather more difficult. It would certainly involve filling and re-drilling the mounting bolt hole for one, and there might not be enough wood on one side to allow for much change here. And owing to the way the trigger mechanism goes fairly deeply into the grip I rather doubt a modification of the mounting area of the frame would be possible to accomodate a very different cant. Rink does make a severely rotated grip for opposite-eye-dominant shooters, but having briefly tried this (it was offered to me by the seller) it seemed completely useless for a right-hand, right-eye shooter. Rink may also make various custom-canted grips on request. No harm in emailing them and asking, if you find your sights are tilting one way or the other consistently.
Therabands are highly adaptable to all sorts of exercises owing to their wide, thin structure. In this instance I'm just wrapping it around the grip, centred on the back of the grip, such that there is no influence either way to tilt the pistol. It's a neutral drag downwards on my arm, towards my foot where the other end is trapped. Adjusting tension is simple enough, just letting out or pulling in a bit of rubber at a time until it offers just the right level of challenge to keep sights on target.
And yes, of course you can further modify the grip, or order a custom grip with greater rake. Sorry, I don't know the specifics of the original Pardini K10 grip as mine came to me used with a Rink grip. Depending on your proficiency as a woodworker you might be able to chop out some wood at the back of the mortise and graft in a new piece, then re-carve the mortise further back into this new wood, then carve the new wood to fit the web of your hand... but this modifies the whole nature of the grip so I'd be a bit concerned you might be destroying whatever other fitting you've done on it. The distance increasing between web and fingers is a significant element in grip fitting, something to be considered carefully. As it turned out with my Rink, leaving a paper-thickness of original wood at the corners of the mortise was just enough tilt for my use. I'm 6' tall, and that element too has a role in grip rake - a shorter shooter might need even more rake added to grip angle in order to lock the wrist while raising the front sight sufficiently to stay on target, while a taller shooter might need less. Depends more precisely on shoulder height - some have longer necks and heads than others, so overall height isn't so significant as shoulder height. Basically there are a lot of variables and only you (and a qualified expert in AP grip fitting if one were available) will be in a position to weigh those variables and work to arrive at the perfect set of compromises.
Someone mentioned cant earlier. Unfortunately, adjusting cant on a K10 is rather more difficult. It would certainly involve filling and re-drilling the mounting bolt hole for one, and there might not be enough wood on one side to allow for much change here. And owing to the way the trigger mechanism goes fairly deeply into the grip I rather doubt a modification of the mounting area of the frame would be possible to accomodate a very different cant. Rink does make a severely rotated grip for opposite-eye-dominant shooters, but having briefly tried this (it was offered to me by the seller) it seemed completely useless for a right-hand, right-eye shooter. Rink may also make various custom-canted grips on request. No harm in emailing them and asking, if you find your sights are tilting one way or the other consistently.
First of all I mentioned I am a newbie.
The K10 I purchased was used and came with a "L" size grip.
Today I went to my usual gunsmith ( The official Pardini Portuguese distribuitor) and tried a "M" size grip.
Well let's just say that my fornt sight drop problem seemed to go away.
With a correct size grip the problem apparentely is corrected.
But... even with a discount the "M" size grip should cost around 150€ (190$)...
The K10 I purchased was used and came with a "L" size grip.
Today I went to my usual gunsmith ( The official Pardini Portuguese distribuitor) and tried a "M" size grip.
Well let's just say that my fornt sight drop problem seemed to go away.
With a correct size grip the problem apparentely is corrected.
But... even with a discount the "M" size grip should cost around 150€ (190$)...
That sounds about right in price, maybe even a good deal. The retail value of the L size Rink grip for my K10 was $250 here in Canada. As for the right size working... well, yeah. A snug palm shelf is especially relevant. When I first made my Baikal 46m's replacement grip I didn't make the shelf snug. Cutting that off and grafting on new wood and carving a tighter-fitting shelf which squeezes my hand a bit helps a lot.
tqb;
Try posting a want-to-buy ad here on the forums for a M grip. Find out what other Pardini pistols use the same grip, to widen your search. Also, try listing your L grip here.
If you're lucky, you might be able to find a straight across trade. I find that most pistols are sold with M grips, so it's difficult (and expensive) to find a L grip.
Also try posting a WTB ad on the yellow airgun forum (a large US airgun forum) and maybe some other forums in Europe.
Good luck. Those M grips are out there.
-John
Try posting a want-to-buy ad here on the forums for a M grip. Find out what other Pardini pistols use the same grip, to widen your search. Also, try listing your L grip here.
If you're lucky, you might be able to find a straight across trade. I find that most pistols are sold with M grips, so it's difficult (and expensive) to find a L grip.
Also try posting a WTB ad on the yellow airgun forum (a large US airgun forum) and maybe some other forums in Europe.
Good luck. Those M grips are out there.
-John
