Left arm collapses to the left in prone

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:08 am

I have problems in my prone position that makes my left arm collapse to the left. It's impossible to adjust natural point of aim to the center of the target because there is no natural point of aim.

I know it's hard without seeing it but maybe I can get some ideas to try. I will try to explain what happens and how my position looks like.

I have my whole left side in line from hand to leg, my left elbow is about 10-12cm to the left of the rifle. I have around 30 degrees of angle on my body. When I lie down and mount my rifle and then relax the left arm, right shoulder etc the left lower arm gets pushed to the left. If I let it go and just relax, the barrel evetually goes down in the ground to the left. When I'm in position and actively holding my right shoulder back then it works okay. If I get a firm grip with my right hand and then put down my right elbow I feel that the rifle wants to drag out of the hand when I relax the rest of the body but not the firm grip in my right hand.

By that you may think that the buttlength is to long but I've tried shortening it the maximum amount that is possible and the problem is still there.

It feels like I must twist my shoulders clockwise, left shoulder more in front of the right.

I've always suffered from these problems in prone. Sometimes it isn't that much but always after reloading I must do something to get the rifle to the right, moving hips, pushing with left arm to the right or any other adjustment. When I'm having the least amount of these problems I'm in the 9 ring to the left and now when I have the worst amount of problem I cant even get a natural point of aim on the target.

ZD · Post by ZD » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:20 am

I have had this problem recently as well, and spent a lot of time trying to fix it. To the casual observer one might think your left arm is to far under the stock, but I found that this was not the case. Here is what I found caused the problem. My position wanted to point to the right, however I would push the rifle naturally to the left on to target without thinking about it. With this problem, no matter how far I offset myself to the left, it got worse. In order to eliminate the problem, I had to first square up my position more towards the target. However, I also had a lot of cheek pressure, which severely impacted my NPA. I mitigated this by offsetting the cheek-piece slightly to the right (this was on an Anschutz 1907 in the precise aluminum stock). Finally, I discovered that the my buttplate was sliding right in my shoulder when I got into position. Essentially, I was flexing the gun left, if that makes any sense. I offset the buttplate such that the rifle was placed more in front of my body (offset the buttplate to the right, places the rifle more in front of you). This had a very helpful effect, try offsetting your buttplate about halfway.I would recommend that you try squaring up your position. Then, try dropping your cheekpiece all the way and see where you are pointing. While there is no doubt that your head pressure will change your NPA, look to see if there is a horizontal change when you have no head pressure. If there is, try squaring up, then adjust. I hope this helps, I spent a lot of time fixing this problem. Any other thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:10 am

That sounds like something that I will try later today.

It's pretty annoying when lying there on the ground and trying to change something to get it better but everything just makes it worse.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:17 am

How did you go about setting your position up in the first place ? It sounds to me as though your position isn't right and you're trying to tweak it to make a bad job slightly better. Apologies if that's not right as you mentioned it's very hard to get an impression lookng at words.

I would suggest getting a coach to look at the position and perhaps even breaking the position down completely and starting again from scratch.

Rob.

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:49 am

There is no possibility for coaching.

I have reworked my position 3-4 times. Getting it better but this is a problem that I need to solve and it couldn't be that far from being right because when this position work then I shoot pretty well.

I have had some people look at my position and it follows the general rules of a good prone position and if i look in books and on the internet I can't see what's wrong. But one thing is sure something is wrong.

WesternGrizzly · Post by **WesternGrizzly** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:58 am

Maybe check your sling. Make sure that it is pulling from the center of your arm and not the outside.
Matt

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:51 pm

Why is coaching so difficult to obtain - there's plenty of coaches in Sweden ? Another option that may give people more clues is if you post up some pictures of your position.

Rob.

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:48 pm

RobStubbs wrote:Why is coaching so difficult to obtain - there's plenty of coaches in Sweden ? Another option that may give people more clues is if you post up some pictures of your position.

Rob.

I've got some progress with my position yesterday and got some pictures of the position that feels pretty good. I will post these when I fix my network at home.

I've asked around after possibility for coaching and haven't got any answer that helps me. What coaches do you know of?

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:51 am

Here are 2 pictures on my "new" position. They are little bad in quality though.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:07 am

Ok to me the sling looks too short and it's pulling you round and the left arm under the gun. So your shoulders and hips should be parallel to each other and perpendicular to your spine - yours aren't but it's hard to tell how far off because you can't see through the jacket. I'd suggest take off the sling - lengthen the buttplate then get yourself in position. Get someone to put the gun in to you and then set the sling to the right length.

Rob.

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:24 am

RobStubbs wrote:Ok to me the sling looks too short and it's pulling you round and the left arm under the gun. So your shoulders and hips should be parallel to each other and perpendicular to your spine - yours aren't but it's hard to tell how far off because you can't see through the jacket. I'd suggest take off the sling - lengthen the buttplate then get yourself in position. Get someone to put the gun in to you and then set the sling to the right length.

Rob.

Okay, can you explain why I should lengthen the buttplate? I ask that because I must know what it should do to know when it's right.

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:58 am

Johan,

I'm going to disagree with Rob slightly. I think that your shoulders are square to your spine. As you say it's not a good photo (but not a bad one either). It's your back that is slightly bent, so your hips are too much to the right.

My observation is that your left elbow is the problem. It is too far to the left, so the position isn't stable. I am puzzled why this would make the rifle fall to the left; this is normally a sign that the elbow is too far under the rifle. Try repositioning your elbow so it's nearer the rifle, maybe 7-10cm, not the 12-15cm you mentioned in your first post. Also make sure your left elbow is as far foward as possible.

Tim

Martin Catley · Post by **Martin Catley** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:22 pm

May I make an observation, to me your right shoulder is higher than your left and you appear to be putting too much balance onto your left side which will make you "roll" to that side.

I am not a coach but would try reaching further forward with your left elbow and try bringing your right elbow a little further forward. Try to get a bit more stable possibly getting a little lower with the left elbow further forward and maybe lengthening the handstop.

Have an honest look at some of the ISSF photos, not the extreme ones but the average ones and compare with your front on one.

dlinden · Post by **dlinden** » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:00 pm

Since everyone in cyberspace gets a chance to comment on your position, I will add my observation. In the second photo (looking down), it appears that your eye-head position is not allowing you to sight on a straight line through your rear sight. There is a significant angle with the rifle-bore axis to the left. It is as if you're not directly behind the gun, possibly due to sling being set short and other factors.

As mentioned by many others, Ways of the Rifle is a good source for set-up information.

Dennis L

tenpointnine · Post by **tenpointnine** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:04 pm

If I am reading your post correctly, I think the clue is in your first post.
' I have around 30 degrees of angle on my body'.

As has already been suggested, I think you need to square your position up. I would suggest that you should be lying at an angle of around 15 degrees, which will allow you to shorten your butt plate and get it in closer to your neck.
Ideally, you need a friend to help you. Start with the buttplate centred, not offset (that can come later, if needed). Slacken the hand stop and move it forward. Lying at an angle of about 15 degrees, put the rifle into your shoulder and aim at the target, sling not attached, supporting the rifle (briefly) with your muscles, or get your friend to take the weight.
Move your left hand backwards or forwards to get the correct height on target. Now get your friend to move the hand stop back up to your hand and lock it in place.
Put the rifle down and rest your muscles! Because it will be slightly different with the sling attached, I suggest you now move the hand stop back (towards the trigger) by another 5mm.
Now slacken your sling and attach it to the hand stop and assume the position. (Don't forget, 15%!) Get your friend to tighten the sling while you are in position then relax your arms. you may need to adjust this once or twice until you stay on target with relaxed arms, and you may need to adjust the butt plate up or down slightly. Your cheek-piece might need to move (left?) also. Your right shoulder should not now be pushing you to the left.
Give it a try. I think you will also find the butt plate is more secure in the 'pocket' between shoulder and neck.
Walter

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:01 am

Very much as Walter suggests, I was thinking of building the position up from scratch. Lengthening butt plate should counter the sling changes but if you have someone helping then loosen it all off, get into a comfortable position with no rifle then add in the gun without altering position and tighten butt plate before moving to the hanstop and last of all the sling. You can then make small changes to fine tune it.

Rob.

Johan_85 · Post by **Johan_85** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:05 am

I was at the range yesterday. Made some small adjustments on the buttplate and sling. Finished with a 199-8x with a 9,9. I got really nice recoil and if I don't do anything wrong (have tensions etc.) it returns exactly to where I was aiming before the shot.

I am at 20 degrees angle now.

Here are some pictures.

tenpointnine · Post by **tenpointnine** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:17 am

Looks ok to me, so if you are getting consistant results, I would stick with it for a few weeks, before thinking of any changes.

Walter

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Left arm collapses to the left in prone

Left arm collapses to the left in prone

Position

Position