BSA Martini International MK II

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:52 pm

I would like to dabble into smallbore prone with iron sights among my other shooting of bullseye, free pistol and air pistol.

I have a BSA on the way that looks to be in very good to excellent shape and I think built in 1954 with the heavier 29" barrel.

Anyone ever owned or shot one of these ?
Any idiosynchrocies to be known in owning one and firing ?

Will be used at the club level.
How accurate and reliable are they in a good shooters hands ?

I know that I will find out by shooting it but just wanted to stir up some Target Talk on an old precision rifle of its time.

Thanks;
Clarence

GeraldC · Post by **GeraldC** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:21 am

I shoot with an Anschutz 2013 and BSA MK1 and Mk 3.
If you can get into position comfortably you can shoot with these old BSA's
I use an SKP buttplate centred on boreline,non permanent material to modify cheekpiece and handstop rail.

Brian G · Post by **Brian G** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:36 pm

I shot with a bog standard BSA MkII International (second hand) in the 1962 GB Olympic trials and got knocked out in the quarter finals with a 583, I made a 586 in an earlier round. BTW that was without a shooting jacket just a thick sweater (and trousers), so there is nothing wrong with the gun.

As usual it is down to the 'nut on the butt'.

Cumbrian · Post by **Cumbrian** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:48 pm

Our club has several BSAs in active use. Our secretary - vastly experienced and now in his later 70s - shot a 99 in practice with his not long ago, though he has gone over to an Anschutz for most purposes. A lady - much less experienced at shooting - has posted two 97s on match cards in the last 2 weeks with hers. So there's nothing wrong with the gun. Indeed, I am told that BSA used steel for the barrel, from Jessup in Sheffield, that was (is?) superior to that used by Anschutz. When I tried one for a short while, however, I found it on the heavy side, and I doubt if these rifles will easily take all the sights now available, but it's great that they are still going strong.

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:14 am

Yes BSA rifles were made to very high standards. When test fired the Mk II had to shoot three ten shot groups no larger than 1in at 100 yards. Barrels were made of American steel (Jessop fluid steel). If the barrel hasn't been abused, or allowed to rust it should still shoot very well. The trigger is single stage and very nice; crisp and with almost no movement, so it feels deceptively light.

As for idiosyncracies, the most obvious is the ejection. The Internationals had a spring ejector that is extremely vigorous. Spent cases will be flung onto neighbouring shooters.

The down side to the Mk II, and with all the Martini Internationals is the stock. In it's day this was was of the most advanced designs, and a big improvement on the BSA 12/15. However it's very simple compared to modern match rifles. If the rifle fits you, that's fine, but if it doesn't you have to put up with it, or break out the woodworking tools. Personally I didn't find it comfortable.

pdeal · Post by **pdeal** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:54 am

I had a MkII and it made a very nice prone rifle. I could not get mine to shoot well but I think it was more my particular rifle than anything. I made a few changes to mine which I think were improvements. I added a modern rail to the forearm. Also, I spoke with Karl Kenyon quite a few years back and he had worked on quite a few of them in his day. He was a proponent of adding a second bedding screw to the forearm near the rear and free floating the front part of it. Made good sense to me so I did that on mine. I know that many will say not to mess with an antique but I disagree if the work is done well. Also, the falling block action is particularly nice for prone.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:39 pm

Thanks everyone for your responces.

Question on hand stop and miniature bipod/rest.
Since it does not have a rail so to speak but threaded holes to mount the above, who carries these ?

Cannot wait to get the rifle and test it out.
I have CCI SV, Eley match black box and Lapua center X to try out.

Clarence.

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:14 am

If the rifle didn't come with a handstop, I'd ask around that the various target supply shops for a second hand one. I don't think these have been made new for many years (not since Parker-Hale went under), as slotted rails became the norm by the 1960s. There is a dealer in the US, Mac Tilton, who imports BSA rifles. He may well have a spare. Fultons of Bisley would almost certainly have one, but postage would not be cheap!

If you want to replace the handstop with something more modern, you are out of luck, as all modern handstops are designed to fit a rail. You would have to replace the factory plate with an Anschutz-style rail, which many have. Although you may not want to permanently alter the stock.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:10 pm

To Tim S;

Thanks for the reply.
I did not realize that they were that rare.
I contacted the seller of my rifle and he is going to throw in a handstop when he ships the rifle.
He said all I need is the bolt to attach it.
That should be no problem.

Am I correct from the pictures I see on other BSA's, that the hand stop also has the sling attachment built on to it ?

By the way, I purchased the rifle from Duffy's, seems like a good guy to deal with.

Thanks;
Clarence

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:22 pm

Clarence,

BSA rifles aren't rare, certainly not in Britain here almost every smallbore club has one or two for beginners to use. However the idea of screw-fit handstops is rather old fashioned. By the 1950s, when BSA made your Mk II, other manufacturers like Winchester, Remington, and Anschutz were using handstops that locked into a rail. This allows greater precision in positioning the handstop, and became the industry standard. When BSA released the Mk III International in 1961 they replaced the screw-hole plate with a rail to keep abreast with their competitors. The Mk IV and Mk V Internationals also used a rail. The only other rifles I've seen with a screw-hole plate were Parker-Hale 7.62mm full-bore rifles, and this seemed (back in the 1990s) a very old fashioned thing.

Yes, every BSA handstop I've seen had an integral sling swivel. The fixing bolt normally passes through the swivel, which can rotate freely.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:32 pm

Careful, Clarence,

It would not surprise me if the bolt was Whitworth. I used to have a BSA motorcycle. What a pain in the ass.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:22 pm

Rover;

Yah, I did some research and there is a company back east that carries european/British theaded bolts and etc.

We will see when I get it.

I may just engineer me an Anschutz rail without messing up the wood forend.
Brownells has one that may be close to the size I need.

Clarence

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:16 pm

You wouldn't be the first to retro-fit an Anschutz rail into a BSA Mk II. From memory the BSA plate is more narrow than an Anschutz rail, but not by much.

If you do add a rail, you might want to place it further back than the BSA handstop plate. BSA designed the stock at a time when prone positions were lower than today, often a lot lower. The 30 degree forearm rule wasn't around, and some folls were practically flat. BSA put the handstop plate a long way out, too far out for some shooters of average height in a modern position.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:26 pm

Tim S;

Thanks Tim, good information.

Clarence

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:14 pm

Received the rifle tonight.

For a 58 year old rifle it looks to be in really great shape.

The brass sight holder contains 2 circle, 1 post and a clear lense with a hole in it and a circle sight already in the sight.
What is the clear lense for ?

Loading a round does show that it does engage the rifling, and then ejects with authority.

A fired .22 shell upon hammer drop shows a very hard impact.

The rear sight works fine.

Seller did send a handstop.

I am now looking for the handstop, sling swivel and bolt to secure it.
Really looking to keep it all original at this time cause it is in that good of shape.

Will not fire it until after the bullseye state championships this coming weekend.
Going to bench it at 50yrds and test ammo and my ability to use these kind of sights.

The stock feels great and if I put the handstop in the rear most hole I am good for the 30 degree rule with room to spare.

Clarence

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:41 pm

As a side note.

A 6mm X 1.00 pitch hardened bolt works fine and torques to spec.
Going to find a sling swivel to bolt to the rail just ahead of the hand stop.

Clarence

RobinC · Post by **RobinC** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:32 am

Tim
Have you seen the pics that were about on the internet of a BSA in an alloy stock? I can't find them now but it was a nice job and really showed what BSA could have done if they had stuck at it.
The action is great and is crying out for a modern version, the last attempt was the Walther BV which had great potential but was probably a bit before its time.
Robin

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:03 pm

Hi Robin,

you mean Walter Griffin's? Yes I have. It's a bit of a beast, definitely not suitable for juniors! I think Walter also has a Mk IV in a one-piece wood stock.

I agree the International could do with a make-over. The action is easy to load (the breech looks to be even closer than the Bleiker), and fast. The problem as I see it (and I'm not an engineer) is the trigger group, which prevents conventional bedding. I believe that Walter's rifle had the action permanetly bonded into the stock so the barrel could be free-floated. If I was going to update the action, this is what I'd look at.

Tim

sandy22 · Post by **sandy22** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:03 pm

Tim S wrote: I believe that Walter's rifle had the action permanetly bonded into the stock so the barrel could be free-floated. If I was going to update the action, this is what I'd look at.

I wouldn't. I'd use a barrel clamp and float the action.

But I'd be wondering how I was going to get all the adjustability people expect in triggers these days out of the Martini design. Plus I'd be having a hard look at the economics of manufacturing this action vs bolt action. (I'm not an engineer either).

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:21 pm

Does anyone here use the "Slimline" front sight inserts ?

Looking at the front inserts I have, 2 are the same size and 1 is smaller, so I do not have all 3 different sizes.

I see places sell a card of the 3 sizes with other post style.

Took her all apart and cleaned it up and lubed.

All screws and mounts removed and cleaned and blue Loktited and torqued in place.

Had to find and make/ replace the 2 screws that hold the sliding plates on the rear sight.
Worked out just fine using 2mm machine screws cut to fit depth wise.

Good to go this weekend for my ammo testing.

Found a Parker Hale rest that slides into my hand stop on Ebay, it is on the way from the U.K.

Just need the sling swivel and it is complete.

Zero and bench test this weekend, yah, cannot wait.

Clarence