I read Mattswe's interesting post concerning when to apply trigger pressure but it raised a new qu. for me - what difference in pressure and travel is recommended or works for you between stage 1 and stage 2?
I recently re-set my stage 1 to a minimal travel - ~1mm movement before taking up the stage 2 position but left the stage 1 pressure at a light setting. My stage 2 pressure is set to 515gm and the travel is what it is - with absolutely minimal aftertravel set on my Lp10.
This got me wondering - what is the point of stage one if you set it so minimally when top coaches recommned a continuous and smooth pull throughout the travel? And what is the recommended (and by whom) weight difference between stage 1 and stage 2?
Any input will be most welcome...
Gerry
Stage 1 & 2 trigger weight differences?
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No replies??
Cannot understand the overwhelming silence -171 views but not one single response to my qu. Given that level of interest I suspect a large number of people would like some sort of input.
Unless this is the Holy Grail of Target Pistol Shooting only taught to the Secret Order of Korean and Eastern European Novices !! If so perhaps you can tell me which handshake or funny dance is required for entry.
Let me simplify it...
What length of travel do you use for stage 1 on your 10m pistol?
Secondly..
Do you have a very light setting for stage 1 or is it closer to stage 2 trigger pressure?
And finally..
What benefit do you see/feel with your personal setting?
Come on don't be shy now...
Gerry
Unless this is the Holy Grail of Target Pistol Shooting only taught to the Secret Order of Korean and Eastern European Novices !! If so perhaps you can tell me which handshake or funny dance is required for entry.
Let me simplify it...
What length of travel do you use for stage 1 on your 10m pistol?
Secondly..
Do you have a very light setting for stage 1 or is it closer to stage 2 trigger pressure?
And finally..
What benefit do you see/feel with your personal setting?
Come on don't be shy now...
Gerry
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David Levene
- Posts: 5617
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- Location: Ruislip, UK
I would suggest that most people won't be able to answer you questions because they don't know the answers.
Their trigger is set up the way they like it to feel. It's not a science. After that, apart from the occasional check at equipment control, they just leave the screws alone and get on with their shooting.
Don't be scientific about the trigger settings. Adjust them so that they feel good to you, and only you. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, or how they have their triggers set.
Their trigger is set up the way they like it to feel. It's not a science. After that, apart from the occasional check at equipment control, they just leave the screws alone and get on with their shooting.
Don't be scientific about the trigger settings. Adjust them so that they feel good to you, and only you. It doesn't matter what anybody else thinks, or how they have their triggers set.
I agree with David , it is very personal and it only matters what you think feels right.
But to awnser your question as to how is mine set up. I am about 50/50 first and second stage maybe 40/60 haven't weighed first stage in a while only check second to make sure it is holding the weight. I have a fairly long first stage that as i'm settling from above the target to my sub 6 hold i'm pulling out so that when I get to my hold area first stage is gone. I have never changed the length of the first from when I got it. I'm fine with the way it is and I can feel when I get to the second stage. For a while I tried more weight on the first stage (about a month) and didn't like it at all. Several times I pulled thru both stages as I was settling and didn't like that. I no longer had a good feel for when first stage was gone and I was now squeezing to release the shot. For some they say having a heavier first stage makes the second stage feel lighter because you have less pressure to then break the shot but I didn't feel much difference in that. I only got the negative of worrying if I was going to pull thru both stages as I was settling in and that took too much attention away from the front sight and actually made me not to want to aply pressure to the trigger because I was afraid too. I am now back to where I started and a,m very comfortable with it this way.
Just because these things have adjustments doesn't mean you have to use them. But you will never know what you like unless you try something just make sure you document what you like and why so that you can come back to it. Also you need to give every new thing a chance, don't shoot 10 shots and say no this sucks and then move onto something else. Try it for a while if you don't like it go back to how it was and then try something else.
Scott
But to awnser your question as to how is mine set up. I am about 50/50 first and second stage maybe 40/60 haven't weighed first stage in a while only check second to make sure it is holding the weight. I have a fairly long first stage that as i'm settling from above the target to my sub 6 hold i'm pulling out so that when I get to my hold area first stage is gone. I have never changed the length of the first from when I got it. I'm fine with the way it is and I can feel when I get to the second stage. For a while I tried more weight on the first stage (about a month) and didn't like it at all. Several times I pulled thru both stages as I was settling and didn't like that. I no longer had a good feel for when first stage was gone and I was now squeezing to release the shot. For some they say having a heavier first stage makes the second stage feel lighter because you have less pressure to then break the shot but I didn't feel much difference in that. I only got the negative of worrying if I was going to pull thru both stages as I was settling in and that took too much attention away from the front sight and actually made me not to want to aply pressure to the trigger because I was afraid too. I am now back to where I started and a,m very comfortable with it this way.
Just because these things have adjustments doesn't mean you have to use them. But you will never know what you like unless you try something just make sure you document what you like and why so that you can come back to it. Also you need to give every new thing a chance, don't shoot 10 shots and say no this sucks and then move onto something else. Try it for a while if you don't like it go back to how it was and then try something else.
Scott
At some point in time I had something like a 60/40 set up, but then I got chewed out by David Moore when I got to Australia and my gun was having trouble passing equipment check (David helped me fix it). Hehe, after that I wised up a little, and realized that sort of trigger configuration only adds to the tentativeness/anticipation problem.
So, these days, I have probably something like a 30/70 where travel is about the same distance on both. The first stage is quite light, just enough pressure so my finger can feel that I am on the trigger, and I am now positively engaging the pressure. The idea is I want to encourage myself to develop a long smooth, monotonically increasing trigger pull.
Actually, recently, I realized that I shoot as well, if not better, on a heavier trigger. So for my air pistol, I increased the 2nd stage weight quite a bit. My overall pull is probably around 800g now. And you know, scores have not gone down, but I find it easier to shoot because I know the trigger is heavy and long, and if I want to get the shot off, I have to just be confident and pull through. This heavier trigger setting also makes going through equipment check (especially post competition checks at finals or random selection) much less stressful.
-trinity
So, these days, I have probably something like a 30/70 where travel is about the same distance on both. The first stage is quite light, just enough pressure so my finger can feel that I am on the trigger, and I am now positively engaging the pressure. The idea is I want to encourage myself to develop a long smooth, monotonically increasing trigger pull.
Actually, recently, I realized that I shoot as well, if not better, on a heavier trigger. So for my air pistol, I increased the 2nd stage weight quite a bit. My overall pull is probably around 800g now. And you know, scores have not gone down, but I find it easier to shoot because I know the trigger is heavy and long, and if I want to get the shot off, I have to just be confident and pull through. This heavier trigger setting also makes going through equipment check (especially post competition checks at finals or random selection) much less stressful.
-trinity
I asked the same questions years back. I wanted to have the scientific based trigger set up. How much 1st/ 2nd/ aftertravel, how much weight, etc.
I bugged an Aussie coach with those questions. He said "oh, don't have too much 1st stage travel, probably 2-3mm, weight just set it up so you can feel the 2nd stage." I thought that is pretty wise.
So I took out my caliper, I set the first stage to exactly 3mm.
After using this set up for awhile, I just could not get used to it. 3mm 1st travel is VERY long, feels almost like infinity at times. When I approached the coach, I mentioned how long 3mm felt like. He sheepishly said, " I just meant set up 1st stage not too long." When I asked him "do you know how long 3mm is on 1st stage?", He again sheepishly said, "Oh, you don't have be so exact."
Now a day, I don't measure exact 1st stage travel any more. It can't be too long, or too short.
Key thing for me is to "pull first, aim second". I "watch" my trigger pull first, get it going smoothly, then focus on aim, good follow through.
Pull first, "watch the trigger" first, get it going smoothly. What weight you set up is probably not that important once trigger is going smoothly.
Be water my friend.
Get that trigger going first, SMOOTHLY. Weight is no matter. Then focus on the front sight. It is ALL front sight after that.
I bugged an Aussie coach with those questions. He said "oh, don't have too much 1st stage travel, probably 2-3mm, weight just set it up so you can feel the 2nd stage." I thought that is pretty wise.
So I took out my caliper, I set the first stage to exactly 3mm.
After using this set up for awhile, I just could not get used to it. 3mm 1st travel is VERY long, feels almost like infinity at times. When I approached the coach, I mentioned how long 3mm felt like. He sheepishly said, " I just meant set up 1st stage not too long." When I asked him "do you know how long 3mm is on 1st stage?", He again sheepishly said, "Oh, you don't have be so exact."
Now a day, I don't measure exact 1st stage travel any more. It can't be too long, or too short.
Key thing for me is to "pull first, aim second". I "watch" my trigger pull first, get it going smoothly, then focus on aim, good follow through.
Pull first, "watch the trigger" first, get it going smoothly. What weight you set up is probably not that important once trigger is going smoothly.
Be water my friend.
Get that trigger going first, SMOOTHLY. Weight is no matter. Then focus on the front sight. It is ALL front sight after that.
Thanks for the very interesting replies. They all so far seem to agree on one point - that is no 'correct' way, just a personal preference.
I am surprised that there is no apparent 'science' behind this though and would also suspect that the Koreans may beg to differ on these matters too. Yes it is a personal thing, yes no-one has come forward yet with a definitive recommendation of weight ratios, lengths etc but with every other aspect from foot position, arm alignment, trigger position, left arm position etc etc justified by reference to 'science', anatomy, basic laws of physics and motion it does seem very odd that Steyr et al spend considerable sums on producing 2 stage triggers with maximum variability and yet they are to be set 'as you wish' with no justification for the first stage being there at all.
I think Seamaster's reply was the most telling having approached a coach only to find that he didn't have a definitive answer either. It goes to show that there are experts then there are Experts. The latter are so because they can produce the results and know why.
I am surprised that there is no apparent 'science' behind this though and would also suspect that the Koreans may beg to differ on these matters too. Yes it is a personal thing, yes no-one has come forward yet with a definitive recommendation of weight ratios, lengths etc but with every other aspect from foot position, arm alignment, trigger position, left arm position etc etc justified by reference to 'science', anatomy, basic laws of physics and motion it does seem very odd that Steyr et al spend considerable sums on producing 2 stage triggers with maximum variability and yet they are to be set 'as you wish' with no justification for the first stage being there at all.
I think Seamaster's reply was the most telling having approached a coach only to find that he didn't have a definitive answer either. It goes to show that there are experts then there are Experts. The latter are so because they can produce the results and know why.
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tirpassion
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:53 am
There are experts and there are Experts, for sure.
I had been suggested by one Expert to have a heavy trigger weight and about 50/50 or more weight on the 2nd stage.
But some experts in the beginning of my shooting days suggested me the contrary thing; 70/30 or even 80/20. I did not pay heed to the words of that Expert. I kept on working with the error until another Expert opened my eyes and made me feel the error. Now I am working hard to rectify this error. Although, I did not check exactly, I feel that my 2nd stage weight is heavier than the 1st stage and the overall weight should be around 600g. Once seated on the trigger blade, the weight check has to be literally jerked hard to break the shot. That way, I am sure that the AP will never fail any test.
regards
I had been suggested by one Expert to have a heavy trigger weight and about 50/50 or more weight on the 2nd stage.
But some experts in the beginning of my shooting days suggested me the contrary thing; 70/30 or even 80/20. I did not pay heed to the words of that Expert. I kept on working with the error until another Expert opened my eyes and made me feel the error. Now I am working hard to rectify this error. Although, I did not check exactly, I feel that my 2nd stage weight is heavier than the 1st stage and the overall weight should be around 600g. Once seated on the trigger blade, the weight check has to be literally jerked hard to break the shot. That way, I am sure that the AP will never fail any test.
regards
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shooter560
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:34 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
I'm not expert and still a long way from being a reasonable shot, however with my compound archery background I have found a few similarities... Mainly a heavy first stage and light second makes me wary of the trigger, the same goes for a fairly equal spread between them. But as soon as i lightened up stage one and made stage two approx 500g on its own, I could get into the shot and make the shot without thinking about anything other than squeeze and make a good shot. As for trigger travel on stage one mine is I guess close to 1mm, stage 2 travel is zero or as close to it as the he LP10e allows
Set your trigger up with no first stage travel. Put it all on the second stage. You will find that you will put a substantial but unknown pull on the trigger and, after a bit of practice your mind becomes learned and will tell you when you are just short of the weight required to let the shot go. For example, airpistol, without knowing it you might be pulling 350-450g, it doesn't matter what the actual figure is. Just keep pulling slowly. it'll go when it's ready.
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John Marchant
- Posts: 192
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Never really measured the length of travel of the 1st or 2nd stage, just adjusted it to what feels good and also what looks a relatively small amount of visual movement.
The trigger pressures are a personal thing with many different theories being proffered. I have mine set at about 380 on 1st stage and 130 on the 2nd. I can then confidently place my finger on the trigger shoe before raising the pistol and can then hold 1st stage whilst concentrating on the foresight. The release is then just a gentle but constant increase in pressure until the shot breaks.
Whether or not these are the best or most efficient settings, I am not sure, but would be reluctant to make major changes as these would take time to learn.
The trigger pressures are a personal thing with many different theories being proffered. I have mine set at about 380 on 1st stage and 130 on the 2nd. I can then confidently place my finger on the trigger shoe before raising the pistol and can then hold 1st stage whilst concentrating on the foresight. The release is then just a gentle but constant increase in pressure until the shot breaks.
Whether or not these are the best or most efficient settings, I am not sure, but would be reluctant to make major changes as these would take time to learn.
Its interesting reading some of the answers, now I know why I fix so many stuffed up triggers.
Very few shooters seem to know what they actually want in a trigger.
You need to know the style or character of the trigger that suits the pistol, the match and your own shooting style. One trigger type will not suit all shooters or match's.
For Airpistol with a two stage trigger I set first stage travel about 2-3mm to the trigger point (measure at trigger mid point).
The first stage weight and travel just lets you settle your finger on the trigger in the right position with a light pre-load.
A break like glass trigger needs to be minimal travel after the trigger point and a high percentage of total weight (near 400g) on the second stage with minimal after travel.
A slight roll off trigger has a small amount of travel after the point and a lesser second stage weight. It gives a softer feel at shot break.
For my shooting style I prefer a small roll off with weight of about 300-320g on first stage and 180-200g on second and a little after travel. This gives me a nice smooth breaking trigger and less snatched trigger shots.
Very few shooters seem to know what they actually want in a trigger.
You need to know the style or character of the trigger that suits the pistol, the match and your own shooting style. One trigger type will not suit all shooters or match's.
For Airpistol with a two stage trigger I set first stage travel about 2-3mm to the trigger point (measure at trigger mid point).
The first stage weight and travel just lets you settle your finger on the trigger in the right position with a light pre-load.
A break like glass trigger needs to be minimal travel after the trigger point and a high percentage of total weight (near 400g) on the second stage with minimal after travel.
A slight roll off trigger has a small amount of travel after the point and a lesser second stage weight. It gives a softer feel at shot break.
For my shooting style I prefer a small roll off with weight of about 300-320g on first stage and 180-200g on second and a little after travel. This gives me a nice smooth breaking trigger and less snatched trigger shots.
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markwarren
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 4:41 pm
- Location: Crewe, England, UK
John Marchant: I'm intrigued with your second stage being lighter than your firsts stage. I have only just started experimenting with trigger weights but have mine set to very short first stage travel and around 180g, then a second stage of around 320g with no after travel. My question is how do you know when your second stage starts - if at all. I take up my first stage when coming down into the aiming point but I get a definite 'stop' when I reach the second stage start. With a lighter second stage do you know when the second stage starts or do you treat stage 1 & 2 as one continuos stage?
Good shooting
Mark
Good shooting
Mark
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David Levene
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markwarren
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David Levene
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No. You just feel the point where the second stage additional weight takes effect.markwarren wrote:The thing I can't get my head round is that if a first stage is set at say 400 and the second stage is 105, as you are squeezing the first stage doesn't the second stage suddenly happen causing possible jerking?
Imagine pushing a cart along a path (the first stage). You then come to a swing gate. You can feel the extra resistance and, unless you increase the amount of force you are applying, the cart will stop. There is no reason why the additional force you need to apply to get through the gate should be any more jerky than the original force needed to move smoothly along the path.
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markwarren
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1. It is maybe possible to say that the second stage must be set at the lowest level you can control, consistently, during a competition.markwarren wrote: The thing I can't get my head round is that if a first stage is set at say 400 and the second stage is 105, as you are squeezing the first stage doesn't the second stage suddenly happen causing possible jerking? Mark
2. If your second stage is 100 grams, than a squeezing error of, say, 20 grams is big enough (20 / 100 = 20%). If your second stage is 200 grams, the same error is 10%. More or less ...
another factor
There's another factor to consider here: the amount of movement in the second stage before the sear releases. If the second stage is set with a very short movement (a "crisp release"), then it's easy to feel the stop at the second stage even without much added weight. But if the second stage is set with a longer movement (a "rolling release"), then it needs more weight for you to be able to feel it. IMHO you can't consider only relative weights when setting up your trigger.
FredB
FredB