Not only has it been a while since shooting Free, but way back, in that past life, I shot mostly 50ft reduced, occasionally outdoor 25m reduced, and 50m maybe once or twice. What I do recall was looking through the spotting scope at the longer distances, seeing the "normal" scaled size of the rings, and being very challenged to see the darned little bullet holes!
1) What is a good focal length for seeing .22 holes at 50m? At the risk of verbalizing a bad "swing thought", I can see some benefit of having the white rings in the FOV and maybe even out to the lane number (good double check against crossfiring). But at 50m, does the FOV need to be inside the low-scoring rings to get a good enough view of the shot holes (optimistically, in the middle!)?
2) Any specific recommendations for make/model?
3) Being an astronomy guy, I have reasonable access to used scopes, the most compact being maksutov-cassegrains, other hybrids or SCTs, or a folded refractor. One advantage of these scopes is switchable eyepieces and better eye relief than typical field spotting scopes. Anyone using something like this setup, and why / why not?
Thanks!
Kel
Spotting scope for 50m .22
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My choice was one of necessity, as I had a B & L 50 x 50 (straight) when I had a store nearly 30 years ago that nobody wanted to buy, so I kept it for myself and enjoyed greatly by being able to discern .22 holes at 50 meters when most of the other shooters were guessing, or straining their eyes trying to see them.
In that respect, I suggest going for AT LEAST 50 or 60 power, obviously of good optical quality. At 50 meters, you will see from the 3 or 4 zone up to the full I.S.S.F. International Pistol target, depending on how far from the eyepiece you put your own eye.
Another question was the eyepiece. As I was younger, swinging my upper torso to look through the straight one I had was no bother, but I quit shooting and resumed some year and a half ago and found I'm not the same anymore, and my girth is larger .......... so I found a buyer for the B&L, and bought a Leupold Kenai 20-60 x 80 with a 45º eyepiece, that makes me very happy. Scores notwithstanding, it is much more comfortable. Also, by having a zoom, I can use it at the 25 meter pistol range (CF and SP), which I couldn't with the fixed upper power.
I short, try to find something in that range. You can see with less, but you will thank having the power in the long run.
In that respect, I suggest going for AT LEAST 50 or 60 power, obviously of good optical quality. At 50 meters, you will see from the 3 or 4 zone up to the full I.S.S.F. International Pistol target, depending on how far from the eyepiece you put your own eye.
Another question was the eyepiece. As I was younger, swinging my upper torso to look through the straight one I had was no bother, but I quit shooting and resumed some year and a half ago and found I'm not the same anymore, and my girth is larger .......... so I found a buyer for the B&L, and bought a Leupold Kenai 20-60 x 80 with a 45º eyepiece, that makes me very happy. Scores notwithstanding, it is much more comfortable. Also, by having a zoom, I can use it at the 25 meter pistol range (CF and SP), which I couldn't with the fixed upper power.
I short, try to find something in that range. You can see with less, but you will thank having the power in the long run.
I've been using a fixed 20 power 50 mm scope for about 35 years. On rare occasions, I get fooled by an insect on my target at 50 yards, but for the most part, I have no trouble seeing .22 holes clearly.
A 45 degree scope is a big plus, as is a long eye relief eyepiece. If I had infinite money & had to buy a new scope, I'd probably get a Kowa TSN-601 with the 25X long eye relief eyepiece. You certainly don't need anything bigger, and I'd rather have the eye relief than zoom.
If you want to go zoom, make sure you get a good quality scope. I had a 60 mm Bushnell zoom that I used for 200 yard rifle matches. There was a scoring problem with a .22 caliber shot, and I couldn't make things out clearly. The coach for the team had a 77 mm Kowa with the 25X LER eyepeice, and one look through it convinced me to buy a better scope.
A 45 degree scope is a big plus, as is a long eye relief eyepiece. If I had infinite money & had to buy a new scope, I'd probably get a Kowa TSN-601 with the 25X long eye relief eyepiece. You certainly don't need anything bigger, and I'd rather have the eye relief than zoom.
If you want to go zoom, make sure you get a good quality scope. I had a 60 mm Bushnell zoom that I used for 200 yard rifle matches. There was a scoring problem with a .22 caliber shot, and I couldn't make things out clearly. The coach for the team had a 77 mm Kowa with the 25X LER eyepeice, and one look through it convinced me to buy a better scope.
Infinite money, lol. I took that approach with the free pistol, and now the Shooting Fund is dry. Drier.
Surveying the landscape with your collective feedback, I think I'll try to keep this under US$500, with eye relief as a top tier requirement (I wear corrective glasses and prefer to shoot with them on). That brings us right to Kowa, except for that pesky price point. Among scopes with good eye relief but are priced lower, I found "Leupold 15-45 x 60 Ventana Angled Spotting Scope SX1". On the Leupold website, this appears to be their entry level, so it's certainly achromatic optics and the color fringes will detract from clarity. The next Leupold series up is the Kenai, now touting color correction and also double my budget, same price point as Kowa's. I imagine these scopes are "ED" glass, while the scopes pushing $1500+ are true apochromats.
Well, I'm not exactly photographing colorful birds or backlit tree leaves. How critical is color correction to seeing bullet holes in paper targets clearly?
I'd prefer to be better prepared for my first 50m experiences, but perhaps I'll just use my Celestron C80ED refractor, pop on a decent eye relief eyepiece, and just use that on my first time out. I would sure look like a dork (spotting scope 10X bigger than gun), or at least, an astronomer who stumbled across a shooting range.
Kel
Surveying the landscape with your collective feedback, I think I'll try to keep this under US$500, with eye relief as a top tier requirement (I wear corrective glasses and prefer to shoot with them on). That brings us right to Kowa, except for that pesky price point. Among scopes with good eye relief but are priced lower, I found "Leupold 15-45 x 60 Ventana Angled Spotting Scope SX1". On the Leupold website, this appears to be their entry level, so it's certainly achromatic optics and the color fringes will detract from clarity. The next Leupold series up is the Kenai, now touting color correction and also double my budget, same price point as Kowa's. I imagine these scopes are "ED" glass, while the scopes pushing $1500+ are true apochromats.
Well, I'm not exactly photographing colorful birds or backlit tree leaves. How critical is color correction to seeing bullet holes in paper targets clearly?
I'd prefer to be better prepared for my first 50m experiences, but perhaps I'll just use my Celestron C80ED refractor, pop on a decent eye relief eyepiece, and just use that on my first time out. I would sure look like a dork (spotting scope 10X bigger than gun), or at least, an astronomer who stumbled across a shooting range.
Kel
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Coastwatcher
- Posts: 38
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:06 pm
I picked up an inexpensive 20 power spotting scope (Alpen) that I leave mounted in my shooting box. I can see the .22 holes at 50 metres but I would not recommend anything less. A little more than 20x would be better.
http://www.amazon.com/Alpen-20x50-Water ... B00013Q35W
http://www.amazon.com/Alpen-20x50-Water ... B00013Q35W
Last edited by Coastwatcher on Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Perphaps you've already noticed that magnification is not an issue when talking prices: a 50 x will cost you about the same than a 25 x, provided equal quality lenses.
This said, what you must care about is discerning capability, that is, clarity.
Magnification is provided by the eyepiece, which is the less costly piece of the spotting scope kit.
So, whatever the power you choose, be sure that the optics are clear enough for what you want, NOT ONLY in bright sunny middays, but in foggy rainy afternoons as well.
This said, what you must care about is discerning capability, that is, clarity.
Magnification is provided by the eyepiece, which is the less costly piece of the spotting scope kit.
So, whatever the power you choose, be sure that the optics are clear enough for what you want, NOT ONLY in bright sunny middays, but in foggy rainy afternoons as well.
Good eye relief
I hunted long and hard to find an inexpensive scope with good eye relief. I compared everything I could get my hands on, and looked at tons of others on-line.
Hands down, outside of a Kowa LER eyepiece this is the one that has the best eyerelief and has decent resolution. Eye relief is way better than the Leupold SX-1
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Cre ... Scope.html
I haven't tried it at 50m, but have had one outing with it on a full distance XTC service rifle course of fire (200, 300, & 600 yds). It held up well, and I could see .223 & .30 holes at the 200 yd line. Not real clear, but enough to discern the group and patterns.
As a comparison, I matched the Creedmoor scope up against my B&L Balscope 60 that I've been using. Eye relief on the old Balscope was excellent across the zoom range, but clarity due to color fringing was getting a little poor at higher powers, and I wanted an angled eye piece/rotating body scope for my XTC shooting. I found an AutoCAD drawing of the 1951 Airforce Resolving Power Test Target, and printed it as a PDF on letter paper. I posted the target on a streetlight and set up at a 100yds, measured with my laser rangfinder from my golf bag. The Balscope resolved the 1951 USAF Target at the -1 column, row 2. Whereas the Creedmoor scope could resolve the -1 column row 4. This test was in bright daylight. The -1,4 boxes are each smaller that .22x.22
nab it from them on July 4, and you get a gift certificate toward another purchase too.
Hands down, outside of a Kowa LER eyepiece this is the one that has the best eyerelief and has decent resolution. Eye relief is way better than the Leupold SX-1
http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Cre ... Scope.html
I haven't tried it at 50m, but have had one outing with it on a full distance XTC service rifle course of fire (200, 300, & 600 yds). It held up well, and I could see .223 & .30 holes at the 200 yd line. Not real clear, but enough to discern the group and patterns.
As a comparison, I matched the Creedmoor scope up against my B&L Balscope 60 that I've been using. Eye relief on the old Balscope was excellent across the zoom range, but clarity due to color fringing was getting a little poor at higher powers, and I wanted an angled eye piece/rotating body scope for my XTC shooting. I found an AutoCAD drawing of the 1951 Airforce Resolving Power Test Target, and printed it as a PDF on letter paper. I posted the target on a streetlight and set up at a 100yds, measured with my laser rangfinder from my golf bag. The Balscope resolved the 1951 USAF Target at the -1 column, row 2. Whereas the Creedmoor scope could resolve the -1 column row 4. This test was in bright daylight. The -1,4 boxes are each smaller that .22x.22
nab it from them on July 4, and you get a gift certificate toward another purchase too.
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deadeyedick
- Posts: 1198
- Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:55 pm
- Location: Australia
Interesting, that Creedmoor scope has a lot of eye relief, just second to the Kowa (which is out of my price range).
Does the Creedmoor (and for that matter, scopes like the Celestron Ultima 80 or 100) allow swapping of eyepieces? If so, then this search may be more a matter of finding decent enough objective optics and then getting a good eye relief eyepiece.
Kel
Does the Creedmoor (and for that matter, scopes like the Celestron Ultima 80 or 100) allow swapping of eyepieces? If so, then this search may be more a matter of finding decent enough objective optics and then getting a good eye relief eyepiece.
Kel
Most cheaper spotting scopes don't have interchangeable eyepieces, and the ones that do (like larger Kowas) are proprietary. With the Kowas, they don't even all use the same design.
.22 holes at 50 meters isn't that big of a deal. I'd play a bit with your exiting astronomical stuff to get a feel for things, and once you get shooting, ask others to look through what they have.
There are plenty of cheap Chinese scopes that would probably work, at least to get you started. The problem is quality control. You may get a good one, or you may get a lemon. If you go to Amazon & search for "angled" spotting scopes with ratings better than 4-stars, there are a couple "Barska" scopes that might be worth a try. Optics Planet also has quite a few reviews of scopes that would be worth checking. The 20-60 Zoom 60 mm Barska sells for under $120. Just make sure you buy from a place that will easily deal with returns if you get a lemon. Midway sells an upgraded optics "ED" version that has also gotten a lot of good reviews, and Midway is pretty easy to deal with.
.22 holes at 50 meters isn't that big of a deal. I'd play a bit with your exiting astronomical stuff to get a feel for things, and once you get shooting, ask others to look through what they have.
There are plenty of cheap Chinese scopes that would probably work, at least to get you started. The problem is quality control. You may get a good one, or you may get a lemon. If you go to Amazon & search for "angled" spotting scopes with ratings better than 4-stars, there are a couple "Barska" scopes that might be worth a try. Optics Planet also has quite a few reviews of scopes that would be worth checking. The 20-60 Zoom 60 mm Barska sells for under $120. Just make sure you buy from a place that will easily deal with returns if you get a lemon. Midway sells an upgraded optics "ED" version that has also gotten a lot of good reviews, and Midway is pretty easy to deal with.
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
I have a cheap Tasco 20-60x60. It was $60 and is pretty much useless at the higher magnification. However, It's fine for 10M AP and even okay for a .22 at 20M at an indoor range when I was printing my own reduced FP targets. However, when I shoot at commercially printed targets, the bull is blacker and even .38 cal holes are nearly invisible at 20 yd. I have looked at the 20-60X60 Barska and the Barska ED:
http://tinyurl.com/895bjhp
http://tinyurl.com/7stmd2p
and even the Barska 18-36x50 (which fits my budget more comfortably):
http://tinyurl.com/6rzc9xm
I know that none of these has a generous eye relief, but I can live with that. I don't need the magnification, but I do need serious light gathering. That would be my biggest concern with the 50 mm objective. Does anyone know which, if any, of these scopes would be bright enough for relatively low light conditions?
Roger
http://tinyurl.com/895bjhp
http://tinyurl.com/7stmd2p
and even the Barska 18-36x50 (which fits my budget more comfortably):
http://tinyurl.com/6rzc9xm
I know that none of these has a generous eye relief, but I can live with that. I don't need the magnification, but I do need serious light gathering. That would be my biggest concern with the 50 mm objective. Does anyone know which, if any, of these scopes would be bright enough for relatively low light conditions?
Roger
Unless you shoot at night, I think there is generally enough light outdoors that 50 mm would be OK. That's what I have used for decades. Indoors, you are shooting at shorter ranges, and light gathering isn't as much of an issue, although some ranges are pretty dimly lit. For a lighter, smaller scope I could easily fit in a gun box, 50 mm has some definite advantages. My wife & daughter both use 50mm Kowa TS501's, which have always been fine for the 50 ft indoor league we shoot in. It's a shame they discontinued them.
One big issue is what's behind the targets. Shots in the black are certainly harder to see if there is a dark unlit trap behind the target. Again, outdoors that usually isn't an issue.
One big issue is what's behind the targets. Shots in the black are certainly harder to see if there is a dark unlit trap behind the target. Again, outdoors that usually isn't an issue.
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
I began shooting NRA Conventional Pistol in 1972.
In June 1973 I bought a B&L Balscope Zoom 60, straight model for
$104.50 (I have the receipt and box in front of me) from Thos. Manetta in Elmont, New York.
It's the only scope I have ever owned until this Spring. Although it's a great scope it's really too big to comfortably fit in to a Pachmyer 3 gun box and still have room for much else..
This Spring I bought a Leupold Gold Ring Compact 15-30X50mm.
Much smaller and much lighter than the B&L.
The brightness and clarity are much superior as well.
Price? The best I could find was $379 shipped...not inexpensive but considering the quality and lifetime warranty well worth it.
I have no trouble seeing .22 holes at 50 yards at 15X and rarely zoom up except if I'm trying to see if the shot is the next higher value.
By the way, there is a thread on this forum about a retired US Navy periscope tech that overhauls spotting scope. He did my B&L last Summer.
I highly recommend him if anyone has an older scope that needs cleaning.
Good luck!
JLK
In June 1973 I bought a B&L Balscope Zoom 60, straight model for
$104.50 (I have the receipt and box in front of me) from Thos. Manetta in Elmont, New York.
It's the only scope I have ever owned until this Spring. Although it's a great scope it's really too big to comfortably fit in to a Pachmyer 3 gun box and still have room for much else..
This Spring I bought a Leupold Gold Ring Compact 15-30X50mm.
Much smaller and much lighter than the B&L.
The brightness and clarity are much superior as well.
Price? The best I could find was $379 shipped...not inexpensive but considering the quality and lifetime warranty well worth it.
I have no trouble seeing .22 holes at 50 yards at 15X and rarely zoom up except if I'm trying to see if the shot is the next higher value.
By the way, there is a thread on this forum about a retired US Navy periscope tech that overhauls spotting scope. He did my B&L last Summer.
I highly recommend him if anyone has an older scope that needs cleaning.
Good luck!
JLK
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
Okay, does anyone have any experience with something like a Celestron C90:
http://tinyurl.com/7wog8u9
It's a fairly big scope, but I'm not worried about fitting it in a standard gun box. I would remove the auxiliary spotting scope of course. With the supplied objective it would be about 40x and I can get one that would bring it to about 22x if that's too much.
Roger
http://tinyurl.com/7wog8u9
It's a fairly big scope, but I'm not worried about fitting it in a standard gun box. I would remove the auxiliary spotting scope of course. With the supplied objective it would be about 40x and I can get one that would bring it to about 22x if that's too much.
Roger
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
Gwhite:
Quite right. I had assumed that it was a corrected image since is was being sold as a a spotting scope, but the blurb on the Amazon web site was not explicit. So I just skipped over to the Celestron site:
http://www.celestron.com/sports_outdoor ... 0-mak.html
On another note, the Amazon site says:
Roger
Quite right. I had assumed that it was a corrected image since is was being sold as a a spotting scope, but the blurb on the Amazon web site was not explicit. So I just skipped over to the Celestron site:
http://www.celestron.com/sports_outdoor ... 0-mak.html
So that won't be a problem.Erect Image System for Terrestrial and Astronomical Use
On another note, the Amazon site says:
The Celestron site is selling it for $229.95, so I would still be "saving" $70, but the Amazon blurb makes me feel like I would be getting hosed anyway. But that's not a problem with the scope.Price: $159.05 ... You Save: $159.90 (50%)
Roger
Creedmoor Eyepiece
The Creedmoor scope does have a removable eyepiece. I have no idea what brand eyepiece would work as a replacement.Kel P wrote:Interesting, that Creedmoor scope has a lot of eye relief, just second to the Kowa (which is out of my price range).
Does the Creedmoor (and for that matter, scopes like the Celestron Ultima 80 or 100) allow swapping of eyepieces? If so, then this search may be more a matter of finding decent enough objective optics and then getting a good eye relief eyepiece.
Kel