New barrel and trigger - recommendations
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New barrel and trigger - recommendations
What would anyone recommend to me if ever I were fortunate enough to be able to buy a new small bore barrel and trigger? The trusty Anschutz 19/20 series? Something (even) more expensive? Or separate barrel and separate trigger unit? Let's say that price is not a consideration, even if in reality it would be. I'm particularly interested in the trigger aspect as I have come to believe that, setting aside my own mind-numbing deficiencies as a target rifle shooter, it is as you actually squeeze the trigger - or try to - that so many shots go wrong.
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Thedrifter
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
I have both a 1600 series (lighter barrel) and an 1800 Supermatch (heavy barrel), which at intervals I alternate between as I can never decide which suits me best. Both have the two stage trigger but there are subtle differences between the triggers. I know I should stick to one rifle but my results don't point clearly in one direction. My trigger problems are now beginning to turn into the dreaded 'trigger freeze'. I use a Gemini stock so that at least is consistent.Thedrifter wrote:What are you shooting now? 19xx or the square 20xx?
I see nothing wrong with the factory anschutz trigger or barrels, I am guilty of swapping my barrel for an aftermarket one though.
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Thedrifter
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
Well the 1600 and 1800 have very similar triggers they can be adjusted to the same or close enough you couldn't tell the difference. I recently turned mine up because I thought it was too light.
Are you using the same stock with both actions?
Well my thought is this and I'm still new also so keep that in mind as others chime in. If your using the same stock with same adjustments for 2 differant actions... Aside from Weight there should be little differance so do you like it heavier or lighter? As you watch through a scope at a target whitch action gives you the smaller hold? Also what barrel do you find to be more accurate between the 2?
Are you using the same stock with both actions?
Well my thought is this and I'm still new also so keep that in mind as others chime in. If your using the same stock with same adjustments for 2 differant actions... Aside from Weight there should be little differance so do you like it heavier or lighter? As you watch through a scope at a target whitch action gives you the smaller hold? Also what barrel do you find to be more accurate between the 2?
Hi! Thank you for your interest. I do find that with the 1800 there is not the perceptible 'stop' at the end of the first stage that I get with the 1600, so that it is easy (too easy?) to slide into the second stage. I prefer the 1800 in theory as a heavier barrel ought to be stable and handle recoil better but I like the lightness of the 1600 for the sake of my arms (much the same is true of the shotguns that I have). I use iron sights - actually quite sophisticated ones it must be admitted - so the scope question may be not relevant. Both barrels are extremely accurate if I get things right for my part. I achieve good scores and bad scores with ease with both! Neither has been heavily used. (I suppose I have a degree more affection for the 1600 because it was my first target rifle and it came with a special 25th Anschutz anniversary stock but that's mere sentiment and irrelevant.)Thedrifter wrote:Well the 1600 and 1800 have very similar triggers they can be adjusted to the same or close enough you couldn't tell the difference. I recently turned mine up because I thought it was too light.
Are you using the same stock with both actions?
Well my thought is this and I'm still new also so keep that in mind as others chime in. If your using the same stock with same adjustments for 2 differant actions... Aside from Weight there should be little differance so do you like it heavier or lighter? As you watch through a scope at a target whitch action gives you the smaller hold? Also what barrel do you find to be more accurate between the 2?
Cumbrian,
the chances are that a new 1913 or 1907 barrel/action will be little different to either your 1607 or 1813. A new trigger is identical to the 1813, and almost identical to the 1607 (the sear position changed slightly with the 1800). The only difference would be how the factory set the sear engagement/weight distribution vs your adjustments & wear.
The same can be said for the 2013/2007. Although these have the disadvantage of not fitting your gemini stock. Which would increase your budget.
If we are talking theoretically, the Walther KK300 is said to have a very nice and crisp trigger. Although it brings up the stock question.
Tim
the chances are that a new 1913 or 1907 barrel/action will be little different to either your 1607 or 1813. A new trigger is identical to the 1813, and almost identical to the 1607 (the sear position changed slightly with the 1800). The only difference would be how the factory set the sear engagement/weight distribution vs your adjustments & wear.
The same can be said for the 2013/2007. Although these have the disadvantage of not fitting your gemini stock. Which would increase your budget.
If we are talking theoretically, the Walther KK300 is said to have a very nice and crisp trigger. Although it brings up the stock question.
Tim
Good points - thank you. Yes, the stock is quite a limiting factor. And I guess that the total absence of specialist replacement triggers, unlike in the world of non-target .22 LR, means that Anschutz have done their homework pretty well. Just as a final thought/question, if anyone here shoots a Grunig and Elmiger, what is that like? Out of my league, I know.Tim S wrote:Cumbrian,
the chances are that a new 1913 or 1907 barrel/action will be little different to either your 1607 or 1813. A new trigger is identical to the 1813, and almost identical to the 1607 (the sear position changed slightly with the 1800). The only difference would be how the factory set the sear engagement/weight distribution vs your adjustments & wear.
The same can be said for the 2013/2007. Although these have the disadvantage of not fitting your gemini stock. Which would increase your budget.
If we are talking theoretically, the Walther KK300 is said to have a very nice and crisp trigger. Although it brings up the stock question.
Tim
G&E oh I should be that lucky!
Given that both your barrel/actions have essentially the same trigger, couyld you not have them adjusted to be the same. Anschutz triggers won't always hold their original weight indefinitely, sometimes wear and use can change the feel of the release. If you aren't confident in this, there may be someone in your club who is, or you could try the Anschutz service crew at the NSRA meeting.
Given that both your barrel/actions have essentially the same trigger, couyld you not have them adjusted to be the same. Anschutz triggers won't always hold their original weight indefinitely, sometimes wear and use can change the feel of the release. If you aren't confident in this, there may be someone in your club who is, or you could try the Anschutz service crew at the NSRA meeting.
Are G and E really that good, then? If so, I must buy a lottery ticket or two. I have adjusted both triggers quite extensively, following the detailed instructions in the manual, and cannot get them to be the same. I would happily go to Anschutz at Bisley except that I hear that they will now work only on the rifles of competitors, of which I am not one.Tim S wrote:G&E oh I should be that lucky!
Given that both your barrel/actions have essentially the same trigger, couyld you not have them adjusted to be the same. Anschutz triggers won't always hold their original weight indefinitely, sometimes wear and use can change the feel of the release. If you aren't confident in this, there may be someone in your club who is, or you could try the Anschutz service crew at the NSRA meeting.
The question you must answer is: "Why do I need a new barrel?"What would anyone recommend to me if ever I were fortunate enough to be able to buy a new small bore barrel and trigger?
If it is because of deterioration in performance of a once "good" barrel it is well worth investigating the reason before you leap into the unknown of a new one. Generally speaking, properly cared for small bore barrels will only show significant wear in two areas; in the throat, just in front of the chamber, and at the muzzle. If this is the case, then it is well worth considering having the eroded section at the breech cut off (usually about 3cm), a new chamber machined and the muzzle re-profiled.
Now whilst nothing in this world is certain, by adopting this approach you have a very good chance of having your barrel restored to something like its original performance. It should also cost you less than acquiring and fitting a new barrel.
A few years ago I was in the position of "needing" a new barrel and after consulting widely decided my best option was to stay with the known quantity of my old barrel and have it re-chambered. I was very happy with the result.
Beware the self fulfilling prophecy! Dare I suggest a session or two with an experienced coach and some conscientious training with an electronic trainer? One of the problems with trigger technique is that it is so fundamental and ingrained that it takes long time to effect reliable change.I'm particularly interested in the trigger aspect as I have come to believe that, setting aside my own mind-numbing deficiencies as a target rifle shooter, it is as you actually squeeze the trigger - or try to - that so many shots go wrong.
It may also be worth experimenting with the 1st\2nd stage ratio. Many (most?) shooters confine trigger adjustment to total weight and lack of creep. Altering the length and weight of the 1st stage can produce quite significant difference whilst retaining the original release weight.
Much to try.
Rutty
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I'm sure my two barrels are far from worn out but I was thinking, perhaps rather too casually, about a new action that would require a new barrel to accompany it. A new barrel is a very considerable expense and I would not lightly contemplate it, so it is interesting to hear of your experience. That still leaves my current trigger problem. For the moment I am experimenting with different ways of holding the stock and getting my trigger finger into the best position. It seems to me that stocks and hand grips tend to leave that finger too far away from the actual trigger, at least for those of us with smalllish hands. At this precise moment I am considering making an extremely slim hand grip, the effect of which will be, I hope, to enable my finger to curl comfortably round the trigger and move it back in a straight line, at the same time as the other fingers and palm exert the minimum of pressure on the stock. We'll see!
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tenpointnine
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:20 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
Triggers
I use a 1607 in a Gemini stock, and at 5'9", my hands aren't that big, but I don't have trouble reaching the trigger. Have you tried moving the trigger blade further back?
I prefer a 2 stage trigger, although of course it is a matter of personal preference. As long as you can feel the 'stop' where the first stage ends and the second stage is heavy enough that you can hold it on that stop (during the pressure of competition and on cold days when your finger might not be as sensitive), if you get a reliable clean break then forget about the mechanicals of the trigger and concentrate on technique.
Electronic trainers are great, but you can improve your trigger technique massively just by buying some plastic 'snap caps' and doing some dry-firing. It may seem boring, but it works!
Have a pen and a pad next to you and after every shot, write down where you think the shot would have gone if you were shooting live ammo. eg 10 @ 6 o'clock, 9 @ 2 o'clock, centre 10, etc. Shoot 20 or 30 shots this way before each live session. This will improve your follow-through. You will find that you concentrate on your hold, sight-picture and follow-through, with your shots almost going off of their own accord, as you are not diverting 100% of your concentration to pulling / squeezing the trigger.
You can carry this on to your live shooting, writing down the anticpated score and direction before checking through the 'scope.
I was going to say"Hope this helps". However, I know it WILL help, but only if you do it!
Walter Griffin
I prefer a 2 stage trigger, although of course it is a matter of personal preference. As long as you can feel the 'stop' where the first stage ends and the second stage is heavy enough that you can hold it on that stop (during the pressure of competition and on cold days when your finger might not be as sensitive), if you get a reliable clean break then forget about the mechanicals of the trigger and concentrate on technique.
Electronic trainers are great, but you can improve your trigger technique massively just by buying some plastic 'snap caps' and doing some dry-firing. It may seem boring, but it works!
Have a pen and a pad next to you and after every shot, write down where you think the shot would have gone if you were shooting live ammo. eg 10 @ 6 o'clock, 9 @ 2 o'clock, centre 10, etc. Shoot 20 or 30 shots this way before each live session. This will improve your follow-through. You will find that you concentrate on your hold, sight-picture and follow-through, with your shots almost going off of their own accord, as you are not diverting 100% of your concentration to pulling / squeezing the trigger.
You can carry this on to your live shooting, writing down the anticpated score and direction before checking through the 'scope.
I was going to say"Hope this helps". However, I know it WILL help, but only if you do it!
Walter Griffin
Interesting that you should have an identical set up, and thank you for your advice. I can reach the trigger quite well but don't feel that I have enough sensitive control over it. Maybe the first inch of my trigger finger is now de-sensitised from too much manual work, especially since retirement. I have often used the dry firing training and the results seem fine - my hold is rock solid etc. - but somehow it goes wrong on the actual firing point. Live ammunition seems to make all the difference. One odd thing: I feel - and therefore perhaps sub-consciously fear - the recoil, in terms of the rifle moving, and even the noise much more with the innocuous .22 than I do with the much more powerful shotgun cartridges that I shoot for clay pigeons, which give me no problems at all in terms of flinching or bruising, even after 100 shots. The shotgun trigger, of course, is a pretty crude affair compared to that of a target rifle.
I'd suggest a session or two on a scatt system or similar with a good coach preferably using a mixture of live and dry fire. This will show up any deficiencies in your hold and approach(however solid you may think it is) it will also show up triggering defects which in my experience is about 90 % of what shooters are getting wrong (however right they think they are doing it) following on from that npa and not being totally relaxed is the next most common mistake shooters make.
shooting a shotgun wont help your triggering in smallbore either as the two techniques are totally different.
Now im not saying that you have any of these problems... But i bet if you put either of your action stock combinations in a vise and shoot them, both will shoot better than you can, allowing for poor ammo that is. Once you know you rifle is shooting as it should it only leaves yourself to blame for poor shots.
They other thing you mention is the fit of your stock, grip and trigger pull length. Again a good coach would help you with that.
You say your stock is a Gemini, literally hundreds of shooters of all shapes and sizes own that stock. I have yet to see a shooter that wont fit into one given an appropriate amount of time to get the settings right again a good coach will help with that.
Flitting between two setups wont help much either. Remember the old saying ... Beware the man with one gun!
new barrel/action... £1500+
2 hours coaching (which is what you need).. Priceless.
shooting a shotgun wont help your triggering in smallbore either as the two techniques are totally different.
Now im not saying that you have any of these problems... But i bet if you put either of your action stock combinations in a vise and shoot them, both will shoot better than you can, allowing for poor ammo that is. Once you know you rifle is shooting as it should it only leaves yourself to blame for poor shots.
They other thing you mention is the fit of your stock, grip and trigger pull length. Again a good coach would help you with that.
You say your stock is a Gemini, literally hundreds of shooters of all shapes and sizes own that stock. I have yet to see a shooter that wont fit into one given an appropriate amount of time to get the settings right again a good coach will help with that.
Flitting between two setups wont help much either. Remember the old saying ... Beware the man with one gun!
new barrel/action... £1500+
2 hours coaching (which is what you need).. Priceless.
Thank you very much for all your points. Forgive me if I cannot respond to all, but I have certainly noted them. I entirely agree about 'operator error'; it's just that if better equipment can offset my natural deficiencies (and age), I'll take that option if within my means. A good coach, yes, but I'm wary after three expensive and not all that helpful experiences in the shotgun world. And there do seem to be differences of opinion in the target rifle world. Yes, the Gemini stock is extremely adjustable, but that can still leave problems at the final point of contact with the finger. I am glad of your view that most problems do lie in the triggering. Thank you again.
Cumbrian where abouts in the UK are you. If your prepared to come over to Nottingham one Saturday ill quite happily spend a couple of hours with you working things through on my scatt and in the 100m indoor range that i use. We have a decent bench setup so can check your rifle over.
For what its worth im a qualified NSRA rifle coach. I also have first hand experience of De-sensitsed trigger finger, iv been working that problem through for the last six months myself !
Buying new stuff to solve operator error is not the way forward.. been there done that, paid the price.
For what its worth im a qualified NSRA rifle coach. I also have first hand experience of De-sensitsed trigger finger, iv been working that problem through for the last six months myself !
Buying new stuff to solve operator error is not the way forward.. been there done that, paid the price.
That's really kind of you, remmy 223. Thank you for a generous offer that I should be delighted to take up. Southern Hampshire is a fair step from Notts but over 60 years I have travelled the distance and well beyond more times than I care to remember. Just a question of finding a date. I'll pm you, if I may.