rifle stock options?

[Thedrifter]

what are all my rifle stock options?

This is for an older Anschutz "well aged" a 1607 so it is the the standard stock with a tapered forend and i have been asking the question and it seems this is a bad stock design, well maby not bad but not ideal, especially for someone who loves shooting prone more. But I will be shooting some 3-Position

I am looking to update my rifle stock and i am looking over some possibilities and let me start by saying i am a penny pincher just trying to find a good deal and consider everything.

ultimately i plan to wait till i have a chance to handle them all "Camp Perry" but just looking for advice from those that have been down this road. I don't want to miss anything and I'm not looking to start a wood vs metal topic just don't want to miss an option.

O and I had a long talk with Neal Stepp and he convinced me that all the newer stock do the same thing and the shooter is somewhat adaptable so he gave me that to think about.

Not looking for just new either I would consider used also.

companies i have looked at include:

Anschutz
1913 Wood
1914 Wood
2213 Older cast stock
2013 precise Stock

Mec Stock

Madison Tuner Stock

Ross Stock

Stopper Stock “Out of production”

10pt9 makes a stock

G&E Stock

Keppeler Stock

Basically there is a lot of options and lots of ways to spend my money wrong that leads to bunny trail number 2... just buy a complete rifle? but that's a tail for another time.

I have been thinking this over and really just looking for advice, opinions, more questions to ask myself, and general thoughts.

Thanks for your time,
Cameron.

Current rifle

[justadude]

You also left out the Walther Anatomic, and Gemini

Some of this also depends on your physical size.

Consider the 1913 stock is descended from the original 1413 stock and most stocks are now a little more svelte, especially up in the fore end.

Lots of folks get all worked up running down the older xx07 stocks as unfit for human use. Even the old wood "standard" stock is pretty flexible if you approach it right. The unfortunate thing is that on yours someone fitted it with a hook butt plate. There is not enough drop on the heel of the stock to accept most hook plates and then be able to get it low enough to establish a good standing position. But I digress.

Unless you have some specific need, for general use it is hard to beat one of the basic offerings from Anschutz. That is likely the most budget friendly as well. Big hands, 1913, smaller hands 1914 in wood. Can't tell you much about the alu stocks other than some have found some of the Ans fore ends to be too narrow.

Western Grizzly posted a nice review on the MEC stock not that long ago.

Comments about the stopper indicate that some of the adjustments do not have enough range.

G&E... nice stock if you like to spend money, is there truly an advantage over other offerings? Nothing obvious.

While you have a decent list of the aftermarket stocks here, I will point out that if you look at the pictures and videos from the world cup most of the top shooters are working with the mainstream stocks, Ans, FWB, Walther. I have to think if one of the less common makers stock had a real advantage then you would be seeing them take over, but, they are not. I think there is a message there.

Cheers,
'Dude

[Tim S]

I'll echo 'Dude in part here.

The 1907 isn't a bad stock. It had the essential adjustments. The major disadvantage is the depth of the forearm, which puts the barrel (and centre of gravity) higher above the supporting hand than is ideal. This is less of a problem for a tall man, but for a small woman or junior it can result in a compromised position.

Rant aside, you could do a whole lot worse in your search than a used 1813 or 1913 stock.

I switched from an 1813 wood stock to a metal (Gemini) stock six years ago. Maybe I was lucky, but I made the transition pretty smoothly. Other I know did not find it so easy, and struggled to get used to metal stocks. What I'm saying is that just handling a stock at a trade stall isn't really a good test of whether you will get on with a stock.

Remember the barrel will suddenly be 1-2in lower, as will the grip and trigger. Changes this big will neccesiate some changes to your position. If you have to work this out yourself (i.e. without a coach) it may take longer.

Tim

[Thedrifter]

You also left out the Walther Anatomic, and Gemini

Some of this also depends on your physical size.

yep I did forget those 2 but I have looked them over

my size is 5' 9” 165 lbs

Consider the 1913 stock is descended from the original 1413 stock and most stocks are now a little more svelte, especially up in the fore end.

Lots of folks get all worked up running down the older xx07 stocks as unfit for human use. Even the old wood "standard" stock is pretty flexible if you approach it right. The unfortunate thing is that on yours someone fitted it with a hook butt plate. There is not enough drop on the heel of the stock to accept most hook plates and then be able to get it low enough to establish a good standing position. But I digress.

made me get out a dictionary
Svelte - adjective; slender, especially gracefully slender in figure.

I am the one that fitted the adjustable but hook to mine, are you saying this is a bad thing? I am a carpenter and have many tools to use at my pleasure, this is one of the things I did to my rifle, I like the hook but am after one that I can make fit my shoulder more comfortably I like how it fits standing but it does not fit just right in prone.

Another project I have been considering is cutting the for end to elimanate the taper. But thats one of those projects that if it goes wrong....

and i would need to figure something out for the trigger guard.

Unless you have some specific need, for general use it is hard to beat one of the basic offerings from Anschutz. That is likely the most budget friendly as well. Big hands, 1913, smaller hands 1914 in wood. Can't tell you much about the alu stocks other than some have found some of the Ans fore ends to be too narrow.

this is some of the info that I am looking for, I know that wood seemed to dominate the 50m prone in London recently. I have been looking most closely at the 1913 and 1914, I even called MT Guns “my neighbor” and they are not very willing to sell just a stock, they fit them to other actions when they can.

While you have a decent list of the aftermarket stocks here, I will point out that if you look at the pictures and videos from the world cup most of the top shooters are working with the mainstream stocks, Ans, FWB, Walther. I have to think if one of the less common makers stock had a real advantage then you would be seeing them take over, but, they are not. I think there is a message there.

Cheers,
'Dude

This is what my thoughts were too,
Thank you for your opinion.

I'll echo 'Dude in part here.

The 1907 isn't a bad stock. It had the essential adjustments. The major disadvantage is the depth of the forearm, which puts the barrel (and center of gravity) higher above the supporting hand than is ideal. This is less of a problem for a tall man, but for a small woman or junior it can result in a compromised position.

Rant aside, you could do a whole lot worse in your search than a used 1813 or 1913 stock.

so your saying not a bad stock, but not a good stock.

I switched from an 1813 wood stock to a metal (Gemini) stock six years ago. Maybe I was lucky, but I made the transition pretty smoothly. Other I know did not find it so easy, and struggled to get used to metal stocks. What I'm saying is that just handling a stock at a trade stall isn't really a good test of whether you will get on with a stock.

Are you happy with your switch to an aluminum stock?

Remember the barrel will suddenly be 1-2in lower, as will the grip and trigger. Changes this big will necessitate some changes to your position. If you have to work this out yourself (i.e. without a coach) it may take longer.

Tim

The large part of my training has come from a combination of books and what I have figured out on my own, I have not had the pleasure of a coach but I have been fortunate to be close to LAR&R and I have been given much of an education from there shooters there, a few in particular have actually become good friends of mine.

[bpscCheney]

Personally I hated the stock on my old rifle which is oddly enough newer than my current rifle. My old rifle, a 19xx had a tapered fore end and it simply put too much pressure on my left hand in prone. I switched back to my 1413 and shot the best I'd ever shot. I like the svelte fore end much better and despite the rest of the stock being slightly less customizable it is still an excellent rifle (even though it was built in 1967).

My suggestion would be to see if you could hold someone's rifle that you would be interested in and see how that fits you.

[Tim S]

so your saying not a bad stock, but not a good stock.

Are you happy with your switch to an aluminum stock?

The large part of my training has come from a combination of books and what I have figured out on my own, I have not had the pleasure of a coach but I have been fortunate to be close to LAR&R and I have been given much of an education from there shooters there, a few in particular have actually become good friends of mine.

Yes, exactly. The 1907 can produce very good scores, but I think there are better stocks out there for prone shooting. Partly the 1907 (and other ISU standard rifles) were less popular because competition rules limited stock adjustment when changing position.

Yes, generally I am happier with an alu stock. I'm 6'1" so I don't really need a super-shallow fore-end, I have to use 18mm of raisers under my sights to get my head anywhere comfortable. However the balance is slightly better to me, and I really like the greater range of cheekpiece adjustment. My stock doesn't have an adjustable grip so I can't comment there.

It's not essential to have a coach, but if you are trying to set up a modern alu stock it really helps to have someone knowledgeable watching you. This saves time and prevents foul ups.

Tim

[justadude]

Something that gets overlooked these days is that the xx07 stocks were the result of there being a specific class of rifle called the "standard" rifle. The dimensions still apply to air rifle and 300m standard rifle although standard rifle in smallbore has gone the way of the dodo.

As a result of the dimensional restrictions the adjustments on the standard rifle were fewer than a "free"rifle and were limited in range. Also, in standard rifle competition you could not change the length of the butt (length of pull) or location of the cheekpiece during the competition. The only thing you could change was the vertical adjustment on the butt plate and position of the handstop/sling on the foreend. Well, I guess you could change the location of the rear sight on the dovetail if you wanted but I can't say I ever saw that done.

When working with juniors there is a lot to be said for the old wooden standard stock as there was enough adjustment to refine a position but not so much that the shooter was likely to develop an atrocity of a position unless carefully supervised.

Now, getting back to the butt hook on a standard stock. Many aftermarket hook butt plates have only modest vertical adjustment. Next the drop on the bottom of the butt end of the standard rifle stock is limited mostly because the lowest portion of the stock was not allowed to extend more than 220mm below the centerline of the bore. A typical result is that when the aftermarket unit is mounted, even in the lowest position with the hook under the armpit the shooter must either raise the shoulder slightly or tilt the body forward slightly to get the muzzle down on the target. Yes, their are things you can do supporting the foreend that will help compensate but in the end you are working around a problem that was created by the installation of the hook. This problem is subtle but it is there.

You also mentioned that the current hooked butt seemed fine in standing but you were having a hard time with it in prone. Getting a hook adjusted for prone has always the tough part. Just think about the way the shoulder is rotated forward in prone compared to being upright for standing and kneeling and you can see why this becomes difficult. Looking at your pictures this butt looks kind of wide and also is sloped backward from top to bottom, pretty much against the natural slope of the shoulder in prone. If you could take that angle out and slope it forward for prone it would probably be easier to work with.

As you have noted, wood still has a strong following on the prone circuit. Unless you had some very specific need it would be hard to go wrong with the tried and true 1913 stock (that basic design has been around since the late 50s or early 1960s) or since you are not built like an NFL linebacker you might find the 1914 to be an excellent choice, enough adjustment to fine tune everything but not so many that you can't keep track of them all.

It is a little odd that MT guns does not want to sell just the stock, swapping stocks on Anschutz M54 actions is pretty common fare. There can be some concerns regarding the front bedding screw bottoming on an action with an aftermarket barrel (as opposed to clamping the action to the stock) that need to be watched for but that is about the only issue I can think of that could make the swapping of a stock more than a simple unbolt and rebolt operation. If you want just a stock, Neal Stepp will hook you up. But, as I have mentioned, since you have an aftermarket barrel, when putting it together just make sure the front bedding screw does not bottom out in the action.

Cheers,
Dude

[Thedrifter]

Now, getting back to the butt hook on a standard stock. Many aftermarket hook butt plates have only modest vertical adjustment. Next the drop on the bottom of the butt end of the standard rifle stock is limited mostly because the lowest portion of the stock was not allowed to extend more than 220mm below the centerline of the bore. A typical result is that when the aftermarket unit is mounted, even in the lowest position with the hook under the armpit the shooter must either raise the shoulder slightly or tilt the body forward slightly to get the muzzle down on the target. Yes, their are things you can do supporting the foreend that will help compensate but in the end you are working around a problem that was created by the installation of the hook. This problem is subtle but it is there.

...Looking at your pictures this butt looks kind of wide and also is sloped backward from top to bottom, pretty much against the natural slope of the shoulder in prone. If you could take that angle out and slope it forward for prone it would probably be easier to work with.
Cheers,
Dude

I think there is some confusion in the installation of the hook, you mention an angle, i think you are talking about the one you can see clearly in the picture below and it was first corrected by spacers,



this is before the new barrel but as you can see during the process i removed most of the angle, as much as i could without feeling uncomfortable about the thinness of the mounting surface for the new hook.



sounds like the 1913-1914 will be the best pick for me, i will keep my eyes open a 1413 sold on ebay a week ago.

would you suggest cutting the taper out of the forend?

I am a very capable carpenter, and have no problem with the work i only wonder about the strength because of the in-letting for stock weights, i suppose i could reinforce those. wood glue is impressively strong.

the trigger guard would be an issue also but i could make one out of....ummm i have some mapel here.

[bluetentacle]

G&E... nice stock if you like to spend money, is there truly an advantage over other offerings? Nothing obvious.

As a happy G&E owner, I thinks there is. The latest G&E stocks are compatible with Anschutz 1913, 2013, G&E Racer, Bleiker Challenger, and all G&E centerfire actions--without modification. I don't think there is any other stock that's as versatile.

Everything adjustment is accompanied by scale. This isn't true of most other stocks, which have scales only in a few places, as dictated by economy of manufacture.

The stock is also engineered to withstand .30-caliber recoil, in that all the stress bearing adjustments are held in place not by friction alone but also by mechanical lock. Even if you are shooting smallbore, this means that nothing's going to walk loose on you. This is archieved by very elaborate machining of mating surfaces, and by mechanical engineering. It's even more true of their line of buttplates.

G&E now has a substantially cheaper stock available called XRS. It basically simplifies the construction of the fore end and eliminates the support for repeater actions.

[justadude]

Drifter,

You have done a nice job in modifying the stock and getting a clean installation. If you think about what the shoulder does when you lay down and start shooting prone you can see the butt angle should still be turned upward some. The older (1970s and early 1980s vintage stuff) the butt slid on an arc. It was a simple and effective mechanism and I am not sure that for many uses the updated system that you started with was really a step forward. This is a tough nut to crack.

As for reducing the foreend, yeah your particular stock is a bit deeper in that department than other years and your concern is exactly the problem, how much can you reduce before you start to compromise the stock? Then if you go too far it is really hard to put that wood back on. The alu stocks can be made pretty slender as the metal is much stronger in bending. Sorry, I don't have a good answer for you on how much you can reduce.

As you noted, a 1913 or 1914 stock might be just the ticket.

'Tentacle

I am not saying that G&E is not nice stuff or that it would not be a pleasure to own. (You indicate you are very happy with yours). At the end of the day shooters are ranked based on score. If it was $$$ invested in the equipment, this past weekend, I with my 34 year old M54 action in 31 year old 1413 stock should have been spanked by the fellow with the G&E stock and Warner sights shooting a few points over. At the end of the day the balance was a few points in my favor and I am not shooting all that great these days.

I can't argue some of the features you mention aren't nice, but I don't see lots of G&E in the hands of the top shooters. Yes there are a few. Now, if I were to start to see 3 & 4 out of the 8 shooters in World Cup finals competition shooting G&E stocks I would have to conclude they provided a competitive advantage over other offerings.

This is why I don't discount the G&E stock as a good piece of equipment but last time I looked I was not so sure that a person would not be better off buying a more common stock and putting the money saved into some training ammo.

Just my opinion.

Cheers,
'Dude

[bluetentacle]

Dude, I'm by no means arguing that just using a different stock will help your score automatically. There isn't a lot of information out there about these stocks and I wanted to share my knowledge about them. Do you not agree that I've contributed to the knowledge pool with my post?

With so many choices in equipment, choosing a stock is a highly individual decision. You need to gather as much information as possible in order to decide what features are important to you.

As for the popularity of G+E equipment, they pretty much dominate the 300m market. The reason that they are not so popular among smallbore shooters is that until recently they haven't entered the smallbore action market, and most people tend to use th same stock that came with their rifles. The expense is a factor too.