prone help

pratt2208 · Post by **pratt2208** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:15 pm

Looking for tips on how to load in prone with out lifting arm off the ground. I currently shoot a 1913 in an 1813 stock when i shoot prone the only way to load the rifle is to lift my right arm off the ground and reset my position which cause variance in shots when shooting iron sights. my buttplate is in as far as i can get it to go. does anyone have any tips on how to adjust my position in order to be able to load in prone with out lift my arm and reseting position.
thank you
jason

Pat McCoy · Post by **Pat McCoy** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:57 pm

It's nice if you can reach the action to reload without lifting your arm, but many shooters can not do it.

It is not the lifting of the arm that is causing your errant shots, but lack of getting the position back to perfect NPA. Try reloading, then relaxing in position and checking ( then adjusting) NPA.

One school of thought is that it actually helps you become a better shooter to rebuild the position each time, because you do become more aware of the entire external and internal position.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:24 am

I can say no more than Pat has posted. I too think its a fallacy that keeping the elbow on the ground is somehow beneficial. You will still move position slightly as you move your arm for the ammo and if you don't continue reassessing your npa then your performance will almost certainly drop off.

Rob.

justadude · Post by **justadude** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:46 am

This is the perennial discussion, how to load in prone without taking your elbow off the ground, especially when shooting an Anschutz. : )

I was either blessed or cursed with long arms so in the past I tried this, get the loading block just so, fire the shot, dip the hand, grab the round, lift the hand and dip the rifle over to bring the loading port to the hand. My right elbow sure was consistent, too bad the rest of the position squirmed all over the place while dipping the loading port down. Turns out lifting the right elbow was the lesser motion of the two options.

I will echo the previous two comments, a solid base position then concentration on consistent butt placement and locking/settling into the position as you settle back down is likely the best approach.

One of the keys to consistent prone shooting is having a jacket the fits properly through the shoulders so you can get the jacket and sling working for you the same from shot to shot and target to target.

Good luck,
'Dude

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:54 am

I was a pretty competitive conventional prone (two 3200's, many 1600's, regional and state championships, two national team championships) shooter in the 70's - 90's and never lifted my right elbow to load, just kind of rolled the rifle to the right until I could reach the chamber. Always used a prone rifle (Anschutz 1411) with a hand made cheek piece made to fit my face. Also used a flat buttplate, not a hook. I found that through training I was consistantly able to retain my position.

gstarik · Post by **gstarik** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:58 pm

I don't think it's a good idea to leave the elbow on the ground while loading.
In my opinion,the disturbance to the position is much bigger like that.
Loading,should be easy,and placing the elbow in the same place every shot,needs a lot of practice.that's the only way to be consistent.there are no tricks or short ways to do it.practice,practice,practice...
Guy.

WesternGrizzly · Post by **WesternGrizzly** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:59 pm

Just lift your elbow and work on NPA a lot more. I still have trouble with it moving around, but it is getting better.
Matt

bugman1955 · Post by **bugman1955** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:20 pm

Here is my method of reloading. Take a round and while holding it press the side of your hand on the mat and move your elbow forward, load and bring it back. My elbow never leaves the mat.

tenring · Post by **tenring** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:34 pm

I don't know anyone that can load without lifting the elbow. Unless they roll.

Tenring

Eric U · Post by **Eric U** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:38 pm

Even with my short action, where I could load without lifting my elbow if I wanted to, I lift my elbow to load. Nothing wrong with lifting the right elbow to load. Just get it back in the right spot when you are done.

Eric U

dontshootcritters · Post by **dontshootcritters** » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:55 pm

When you get the likes of Eric and Guy providing an answer to a question then in my humble opinion their suggestions/advice are based on solid tried and tested methods that come from the top of world shooting.It can be more of a danger to have too many varied opinions from those that dont have the experience.Just before anyone thinks Im poking mischief at earlier comments Im not.I would also listen to justadude.This is a great forum for help and advice and it is great that the top shooters take time to help out.

bugman1955 · Post by **bugman1955** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:31 pm

Just to clarify, my elbow does not come off the mat but slides forward and yes I do roll the rifle over a bit to load.

Dave IRL · Post by **Dave IRL** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:03 pm

I'd just raise the elbow. Like people are saying, it's not going to disturb your position as long as you have a mechanic to put it back in the right place. For me, once I place the elbow, I check my inner position and balance, relax and check my zero position, which should be the same as the last shot. If it is, good to go.

pratt2208 · Post by **pratt2208** » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:58 pm

Thank You all for the advise i will definitley work and the mechanics of making my position the same after loading this summer when i shoot irons.
thank you
Jason

bugman1955 · Post by **bugman1955** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:14 pm

I would love to raise my elbow to load but I have a tear in my rotator cuff. Until I get it repaired, sliding the elbow is the only way I can load.

BrianJ · Post by **BrianJ** » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:09 pm

Maybe more important than the elbow is to have a stock that fits you perfectly so that after loading your correct position becomes automatic.

bjm

jamcmahon · Post by **jamcmahon** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:27 pm

You can "lean" your support arm over to meet your other hand, but in essence you are still losing position.

One thought for you to ponder...

1) Is it better to lift your trigger elbow, or take the butt plate away from your shoulder? Which is easier for you to repeat every shot? For some it's one, for others, it's the other. Try both if you just cannot seem to load without lifting.

As earlier posts eluded to, NPA is key to a good shot, and you should be checking it every column at the very least, but most check every shot.

I don't know that there is a "sure-fire" answer. You may have to take a necessary evil and master it to your benefit.

Hope this helps...

Durkee Atwood · Post by **Durkee Atwood** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:19 pm

pratt2208 wrote:Looking for tips on how to load in prone with out lifting arm off the ground. I currently shoot a 1913 in an 1813 stock when i shoot prone the only way to load the rifle is to lift my right arm off the ground and reset my position which cause variance in shots when shooting iron sights. my buttplate is in as far as i can get it to go. does anyone have any tips on how to adjust my position in order to be able to load in prone with out lift my arm and reseting position.
thank you
jason

For what it is worth I agree with others that moving the trigger hand elbow is the least disruptive move.

I will add that if you pivot around your forestock hand elbow (that does not move) when shifting your hips to align naturally with the other diagrams then your trigger hand elbow has to find a new position.

At 50M (two diagram)
I try and keep the stock in my shoulder and keep the rifle as still as possible and load. Then I take grip with my hand first and gently move my elbow back into position on the mat for each string of five shots.

At 25Yds (ten diagram)
I am constantly readjusting my right elbow to align naturally with the target and for the most comfortable position. I always check with my left eye that the space between my stock and my forestock arm is constant and this might mean moving my trigger hand elbow slightly inwards or out wards. I would expect some movement forwards with my trigger hand elbow because I shoot right to left.

A good fitting jacket is essential to consistency. It certainly restricts my movements to the point where if I'm not in the right position then I feel uncomfortable. I know that the position I seek will allow me to shoot for an hour without tiring. It then allows me to concentrate on my foresight for the perfect sight picture and rock solid stillness.

I suppose what I am saying is don't fixate on your trigger hand elbow but concentrate on being naturally aligned and comfortable. Once you find your groove then it will allow you to find that moment of almost thoughtlessness as you squeeze that trigger. The zoned follow through will assure that the shot went where you felt it would go.

Happy shooting.

bluetentacle · Post by **bluetentacle** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:44 pm

In my experience, to reload without either lifting the trigger elbow or tilting the support arm (even more disruptive) is impossible unless the rifle design is such that the loading port is within *the arc of movement of the trigger hand* with the elbow as the fulcrum--about under your face.

No rifle design puts the loading port in this location, except one. It's designed for Anschutz round actions. I forgot the name of this stock, but it appears almost nobody uses it.

Merely moving the port above the trigger, as with the Bleiker and G+E actions, and a number of others, is not sufficient. Your trigger hand doesn't need to move forward much, but it still has to move *upward* to reach the port and this necessitates lifting the arm.

Hemmers · Post by **Hemmers** » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:21 am

justadude wrote:I was either blessed or cursed with long arms so in the past I tried this, get the loading block just so, fire the shot, dip the hand, grab the round, lift the hand and dip the rifle over to bring the loading port to the hand. My right elbow sure was consistent, too bad the rest of the position squirmed all over the place while dipping the loading port down. Turns out lifting the right elbow was the lesser motion of the two options.

This. Even if your elbow stays on the ground, you're going to be flexing and working muscles in the shoulder anyway. One way or another you need a position that will take movement and which you can bring back to a consistent position after that movement. Because as a human being you can never eliminate all movement. Ever.
And indeed if you're shooting a 60-shot match and take a break (which most people do), you're going to need to be able to get back into position and carry on shooting without sighters.

Make sure your jacket is fitting as well as it can, and if it's not good enough, trade it in for one that fits better. The butt, whilst wanting to be tight, shouldn't be so tight it's causing you to tense up - muscle twitch/spasm in a tense shoulder is just as bad as a loose fitting butt plate.

If you watch some world class shooters, they'll place their hand on the grip and then put their right elbow down - because of course the only job of your right hand is to squeeze the trigger - it shouldn't be putting pressure on the stock in any particular direction. The elbow can move - so long as the butt is coming back to the right place in the shoulder.

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