Hello,
I'm relatively new to using a scatt and I'm looking for any suggestions on what a good training program/goals would be. I primarily shoot 10m air rifle and average in the 570-575 range. I would like to get to 585-590.
I remember reading a post on here earlier about how the scatt is not a machine that should be used to focus on scores but instead on holds, graphs, etc. I have also read that the f-coefficient should be set at 0 to focus only on my hold, not scores. I generally have my system set at 3.5 meters for training and am unable to increase the distance although I would like to.
I was also wondering if the USA/NRA 50ft. target was available for scatt as i plan to start shooting indoor 3-p smallbore more often.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. If you have any questions, I will try to answer them as quickly as possible.
Scatt Training Regime?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
-
C.Opalewski
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:44 pm
- Location: Vicksburg, Michigan
Work on holding and aiming (10.0 and 10a0) by breathing, balance and position. This will result in lower l-values.
Remember, scatt only displays the effect of your actions on the range. Don't use scatt just as a target and gather data: this will have little to no effect. Trick is to analyse, evaluate position and technique.
Remember, scatt only displays the effect of your actions on the range. Don't use scatt just as a target and gather data: this will have little to no effect. Trick is to analyse, evaluate position and technique.
To add to that, setting the f-coefficient to zero is fine for hold and aiming to start with but you should also set it to 45 (as recommended by Guy) or higher which will show if you have triggering issues or the like.
It can be quite revealing to look at your shots with different f-coefficients and see what happens to your numbers.
When I've been training (prone) I have concentrated on either:
a) reducing the size of hold and not worrying about aim.
b) aiming consistently.
c) triggering - with a higher f-coefficient and trying to get the distance between shot and center of hold to be small. i.e. low speed of movement at the instant of release.
- and going round the cycle making adjustments to my equipment setup and shot process to achieve better results.
Focusing on scores is not realistic as there will always be some bullet or pellet dispersion to add. I can shoot perfect 600/600 SCATT scores but when you start to add in the potential 8-9mm C-C of bullet error it becomes a lot more "real".
On the other hand, the better your SCATT scores, the more likely your real world scores will be good - and it boosts your self confidence...
Ken.
It can be quite revealing to look at your shots with different f-coefficients and see what happens to your numbers.
When I've been training (prone) I have concentrated on either:
a) reducing the size of hold and not worrying about aim.
b) aiming consistently.
c) triggering - with a higher f-coefficient and trying to get the distance between shot and center of hold to be small. i.e. low speed of movement at the instant of release.
- and going round the cycle making adjustments to my equipment setup and shot process to achieve better results.
Focusing on scores is not realistic as there will always be some bullet or pellet dispersion to add. I can shoot perfect 600/600 SCATT scores but when you start to add in the potential 8-9mm C-C of bullet error it becomes a lot more "real".
On the other hand, the better your SCATT scores, the more likely your real world scores will be good - and it boosts your self confidence...
Ken.
Hi KennyKennyB wrote:
When I've been training (prone) I have concentrated on either:
a) reducing the size of hold and not worrying about aim.
b) aiming consistently.
c) triggering - with a higher f-coefficient and trying to get the distance between shot and center of hold to be small. i.e. low speed of movement at the instant of release
Ken.
How do you manage to reduce the size of hold when using Scatt
Gary
Ah, the easy ones first eh?GaryD wrote: Hi Kenny
How do you manage to reduce the size of hold when using Scatt
Gary
I hope to have some insight tomorrow as I have someone who's hold is diabolical that I'll be running through the SCATT.
For me it's down to relaxation, getting rid of pulse, having a solid position and an empty stomach. Unfortunately my hold has always been pretty good so I can't offer much else in the way of insight as to how to improve it... yet.
Ken.
Hi Ken -
Did you make the Dewar Team again this year? Haven't seen any results or rosters from your side of the ocean.
I am interested in your SCATT training. I am breaking in a new custom coat and I cannot get L values in my tracings to match what I routinely obtain from my old coat. Shot placement is fine (good or better than previously), but the L values are consistently higher. Can you share what L values you are getting in your training?
Thanks - Dennis L
Did you make the Dewar Team again this year? Haven't seen any results or rosters from your side of the ocean.
I am interested in your SCATT training. I am breaking in a new custom coat and I cannot get L values in my tracings to match what I routinely obtain from my old coat. Shot placement is fine (good or better than previously), but the L values are consistently higher. Can you share what L values you are getting in your training?
Thanks - Dennis L
Hi Dennis - long story short, in the trials I shot great 50's (equal top shot) but awful 100's (later discovering that the ammo wouldn't group at that distance...). So no, I missed the cut by a whisker.
I haven't seen any scores published either.
L values? On a bad day are around 40, on a good day under 30. Mostly low 30's.
10a5 is normally 90%+.
I have a stated goal of qualifying for the Pershing team this year so I'd get to shoot at Perry in 2013. I'd love to meet and shoot with you guys in person.
Unfortunately it looks like I'll be touring in Australia at the time we shoot the 2012 Dewar - which is one of the routes to qualification for the trials - but there are other ways...
If you have any SCATT insights, please share.
regards,
Ken.
I haven't seen any scores published either.
L values? On a bad day are around 40, on a good day under 30. Mostly low 30's.
10a5 is normally 90%+.
I have a stated goal of qualifying for the Pershing team this year so I'd get to shoot at Perry in 2013. I'd love to meet and shoot with you guys in person.
Unfortunately it looks like I'll be touring in Australia at the time we shoot the 2012 Dewar - which is one of the routes to qualification for the trials - but there are other ways...
If you have any SCATT insights, please share.
regards,
Ken.
Responding to the original poster, you mentioned using the device at 3.5 meters. My instructions indicate its use should be within 5-12 meters. Don't know if that will make a difference.
Ken -
Those are great numbers and not something I have been able to achieve. Just for reference, I use my device at 9 meters from the target, selecting the 50 meter "target", and a measurement interval of 1 second (yellow) with the final 0.3 seconds in blue. The L values I get are generally upper 30's. Occasional shots can be lower, but nothing repeatable. For the life of me, I cannot coorrelate the tracing I observe on the screen to any particular L value. For example, I can get a very miniscule trace tucked neatly inside one small part of the "shot disk" and have a high L. Conversely, I can get a long trace that is mostly streaming outside the disk and have a very low L. Would like to be able to understand this better.
I started shooting late in life and have been playing catch-up. That means I have to practice as much as I can to get anywhere. The trainer has helped me work on my endurance as I can now easily hold my position for very long time periods. I have also been able to watch for and eliminate small changes in my position that would cause a change in NPA while shooting a string. I use it most days after work and it helps to achieve a physical state of relaxation and maintain a familiar feel of my position so I know what's what when I go to the range. I can beta test changes so that when I do get to the range for live fire practice I can be more efficient with my time having eliminated changes in advance that won't be successful.
As mentioned earlier, I have been spending a lot of time recently trying to get my new prone coat sorted out. Too much time in my opinion. And I would like to figure out some strategy to reduce the trace movement further. No idea how to get to 30 even though my shooting is consistent in dryfire and live fire. For scores on the SCATT, I average between 10.5 and 10.6 for most all strings, but that is not correlating to smallness of trace as I mentioned.
If more people talk about all this, maybe we can learn something, especially for those of us training in isolation.
Dennis L
Ken -
Those are great numbers and not something I have been able to achieve. Just for reference, I use my device at 9 meters from the target, selecting the 50 meter "target", and a measurement interval of 1 second (yellow) with the final 0.3 seconds in blue. The L values I get are generally upper 30's. Occasional shots can be lower, but nothing repeatable. For the life of me, I cannot coorrelate the tracing I observe on the screen to any particular L value. For example, I can get a very miniscule trace tucked neatly inside one small part of the "shot disk" and have a high L. Conversely, I can get a long trace that is mostly streaming outside the disk and have a very low L. Would like to be able to understand this better.
I started shooting late in life and have been playing catch-up. That means I have to practice as much as I can to get anywhere. The trainer has helped me work on my endurance as I can now easily hold my position for very long time periods. I have also been able to watch for and eliminate small changes in my position that would cause a change in NPA while shooting a string. I use it most days after work and it helps to achieve a physical state of relaxation and maintain a familiar feel of my position so I know what's what when I go to the range. I can beta test changes so that when I do get to the range for live fire practice I can be more efficient with my time having eliminated changes in advance that won't be successful.
As mentioned earlier, I have been spending a lot of time recently trying to get my new prone coat sorted out. Too much time in my opinion. And I would like to figure out some strategy to reduce the trace movement further. No idea how to get to 30 even though my shooting is consistent in dryfire and live fire. For scores on the SCATT, I average between 10.5 and 10.6 for most all strings, but that is not correlating to smallness of trace as I mentioned.
If more people talk about all this, maybe we can learn something, especially for those of us training in isolation.
Dennis L
-
C.Opalewski
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:44 pm
- Location: Vicksburg, Michigan
My instructions also say that the system should be used between 5-12m, which begs the question: Is there an ideal distance that the scatt system should be set up at?
Responding to the original poster, you mentioned using the device at 3.5 meters. My instructions indicate its use should be within 5-12 meters. Don't know if that will make a difference.
Hi Dennis,
I learned a lot today and you are right about one thing - I have been training at home at 6m. When you go to 10m the L value results aren't NEARLY as good...
Today I was in the same ballpark as you, in the high 30's with small and tightly packed last second but with a relatively high L. The results were still similar for the 10.0 and 10a0 though.
I downloaded a session from the SCATT website to compare my results with - I have a small but high speed jitter compared to their example.
Also I played around with the sling position on the upper arm - when it's low I get a very visible pulse in my left wrist and the L values go right up (but it's easier to shoot between heartbeats).
With a high sling I get very little pulse.
When I first got the SCATT I tried setting it up at as short a distance as I could - you can scale targets down to 3m and the system WILL calibrate at that distance but the acceptance circle for calibration is very small. Going to 4m and above would be the minimum distance that I'd consider using.
The chap I was trying to help today has problems with tension across his back causing tremor. We tried getting his left hand further out on the forend and a higher sling position but his L values were still above 70 (they started at 120+). More work to do there...
Regards,
Ken.
I learned a lot today and you are right about one thing - I have been training at home at 6m. When you go to 10m the L value results aren't NEARLY as good...
Today I was in the same ballpark as you, in the high 30's with small and tightly packed last second but with a relatively high L. The results were still similar for the 10.0 and 10a0 though.
I downloaded a session from the SCATT website to compare my results with - I have a small but high speed jitter compared to their example.
Also I played around with the sling position on the upper arm - when it's low I get a very visible pulse in my left wrist and the L values go right up (but it's easier to shoot between heartbeats).
With a high sling I get very little pulse.
When I first got the SCATT I tried setting it up at as short a distance as I could - you can scale targets down to 3m and the system WILL calibrate at that distance but the acceptance circle for calibration is very small. Going to 4m and above would be the minimum distance that I'd consider using.
The chap I was trying to help today has problems with tension across his back causing tremor. We tried getting his left hand further out on the forend and a higher sling position but his L values were still above 70 (they started at 120+). More work to do there...
Regards,
Ken.
You just made my day. I have been wondering if people were comparing apples to apples and if differences in distance to target could change the results. That is why I posted my set-up details.
I recently was very systematic in checking for changes as a result of moving the sling position on my arm as well as adjusting the tension of the sling. I did this for each possible setting (within reason) checking the results on my traces. I made sure that there was ample sampling before I went to a new setting. I came to the exact same conclusion you did in that I needed a higher position on my arm. Also, too little sling tension and too tight tension yielded negative results due to more trace movement. Too tight caused a "vibration" and too loose causes more wandering of the trace. I also have found (for me) that if the coat itself is too tight, the same thing occurs. I recently moved the buttons (closer to the edge) and use only two (prone) to get the best results. Additionally, I loosened the right shoulder straps releasing tension on the back and this made a positive difference. Another exercise I performed was moving the handstop and buttplate positions. I realize I am OCD, but it is winter and I am waiting for my new Palma rifle to be completed.
I would have to make new target bulls to experiment with moving my shooting point to see what effect I get. At 10 meters, I have the bull/aperture settings exactly the same as I use outdoors and would prefer to keep it the same. I do know that if you change the measurement interval, say 1/2 second from 1 second, you get half the L trace. Also, if you use a 100 meter target, for example, instead of a 50 meter target, you will obtain double the L trace. The L values are very impressive for the 1000 yard Palma target! This info is provided just in case someone was curious.
This thread has been helpful and I hope it continues. Not sure what you were able to download. All I have found were Air Rifle SCATT recordings and nothing for smallbore prone. Would really like to see others, eg Guy Starik who is world class. From what I recall Eric U telling me, he hasn't used the SCATT in some time. I think his hold trace will be around 1 or 2 if that high.
Dennis L
I recently was very systematic in checking for changes as a result of moving the sling position on my arm as well as adjusting the tension of the sling. I did this for each possible setting (within reason) checking the results on my traces. I made sure that there was ample sampling before I went to a new setting. I came to the exact same conclusion you did in that I needed a higher position on my arm. Also, too little sling tension and too tight tension yielded negative results due to more trace movement. Too tight caused a "vibration" and too loose causes more wandering of the trace. I also have found (for me) that if the coat itself is too tight, the same thing occurs. I recently moved the buttons (closer to the edge) and use only two (prone) to get the best results. Additionally, I loosened the right shoulder straps releasing tension on the back and this made a positive difference. Another exercise I performed was moving the handstop and buttplate positions. I realize I am OCD, but it is winter and I am waiting for my new Palma rifle to be completed.
I would have to make new target bulls to experiment with moving my shooting point to see what effect I get. At 10 meters, I have the bull/aperture settings exactly the same as I use outdoors and would prefer to keep it the same. I do know that if you change the measurement interval, say 1/2 second from 1 second, you get half the L trace. Also, if you use a 100 meter target, for example, instead of a 50 meter target, you will obtain double the L trace. The L values are very impressive for the 1000 yard Palma target! This info is provided just in case someone was curious.
This thread has been helpful and I hope it continues. Not sure what you were able to download. All I have found were Air Rifle SCATT recordings and nothing for smallbore prone. Would really like to see others, eg Guy Starik who is world class. From what I recall Eric U telling me, he hasn't used the SCATT in some time. I think his hold trace will be around 1 or 2 if that high.
Dennis L
Hi Dennis,
the file I downloaded was here: http://www.scatt.com/articles/17/pulse-technique/ and entitled BOBKOVA4.AIM [178.00KB].
Worth a look.
I was struck by how low the speed was in the instant before release - in some respects I think that just looking at L values with a 1 second control time is a very rough measurement and it's more revealing to look at the speed value when the shot goes (i.e. after the last heartbeat).
I noted that the f-coefficient for this session was 25.
If you're OCD then so am I...
Regards,
Ken.
the file I downloaded was here: http://www.scatt.com/articles/17/pulse-technique/ and entitled BOBKOVA4.AIM [178.00KB].
Worth a look.
I was struck by how low the speed was in the instant before release - in some respects I think that just looking at L values with a 1 second control time is a very rough measurement and it's more revealing to look at the speed value when the shot goes (i.e. after the last heartbeat).
I noted that the f-coefficient for this session was 25.
If you're OCD then so am I...
Regards,
Ken.
Its a wonderfull tool, but its very interesting that there are so many foibles from user to user, fortunately I learnt quite early that its better at the longer distances initially starting at 3.5 mt and now I use it at 5 mt minimum, 7 mt if possible and 10 mt is ideal.
I have experimented with F coeficients but find that analysis is less complicated and more representative with it on zero.
I have also done exercises once a shooter is settled to switch to a plain black card with no aiming mark, now that produces some interesting results!
Just when I think I'm starting to understand it you guys come up with some thing new! So yes a great informative thread, keep it up.
Robin
I have experimented with F coeficients but find that analysis is less complicated and more representative with it on zero.
I have also done exercises once a shooter is settled to switch to a plain black card with no aiming mark, now that produces some interesting results!
Just when I think I'm starting to understand it you guys come up with some thing new! So yes a great informative thread, keep it up.
Robin
Thanks for noting that link Ken. I am assuming that Bobkova is really just your username and that is a typical set of shots from one of your practice sessions. A couple of observations. I get the same motion artifacts; the many squiggly bumps along the trace noted in the speed graph. No idea what causes that. Also, I still don't understand how you get low L numbers when the trace is sometimes outiside of the shot disk (yellow part of the line). These L values are really low and can't imagine how I would ever accomplish that consistently from my current set-up. I wish the files recorded the distance to the actual SCATT target for comparison. I would also like to see more recordings like this. Anyone know of more?
Robin - Can you recall what you noticed, if anything, when you changed distances to your target? Along the lines of a blank target, a good exercise is to shoot without any rear sight concentrating just on settling in, trigger release, pulse, etc.
Dennis L
Robin - Can you recall what you noticed, if anything, when you changed distances to your target? Along the lines of a blank target, a good exercise is to shoot without any rear sight concentrating just on settling in, trigger release, pulse, etc.
Dennis L
For a large collection of Scatt-files visit http://ematch.scatt.com/download/.
They are mixed-up; rifle, pistol.
They are mixed-up; rifle, pistol.
Dennisdlinden wrote:Robin - Can you recall what you noticed, if anything, when you changed distances to your target? Along the lines of a blank target, a good exercise is to shoot without any rear sight concentrating just on settling in, trigger release, pulse, etc.
Dennis L
On the shorter distances we were getting strange unexplained things such as groups moving which we initialy thought was either the shooter or the barrel sensor moving, we could never prove what it was but it doesn't seem to happen on the longer distances such as 7mt. As I said I'm now using a zero F coeficient on all diciplines air and smallbore, basically as I'm a simple soul and I found it complicated what I was trying to see.
I initialy used the black card on an air rifle shooter who had a lovely natural hold standing but spent ages chasing what he thought was the perfect sight picture with the inevitable result. The black card taught him to just relax and take the shot, it brought his results into what he always had the potential to do. We have had some interesting results with tightening up the movement of standing beginners useing the same technique. My wife is small and can't sensibly load from the shoulder prone so has always reformed each shot, we used the black card to check how precise her zero point was shot to shot, it was near enough perfect.
Good shooting
Robin