If people can't be bothered with a few months wait and a few hundred dollars in cost then chances are they aren't going to have the perseverance for target shooting either - or they don't want a gun for target shooting at all - either way its better they don't start.
Ergo the old adage - you get the government you deserve.
Not sure what your point is.
If someone can't be bothered with a little cost and some paperwork then I'd question why they want a gun in the first place.
The gun laws here are fairly straightforward, 6 months wait for the first pistol, another six months and you can buy more.
Training typically fills the first six months while you can use club guns and other club members guns.
I've been on a club committee for an ISSF club while and weeding out the yeehas who just want the biggest shiniest gun they've seen on TV is a headache.
Why do we not want yeehas? They're the one group who will give the club and sport a bad name, and seem as a group to be consistently incapable of following the simplest instructions, rules and procedures....
The USA has the 2d Amendment to the US Constitution that guarantees our God given right to bear arms. The key here is the government does not give us the right, God did; our 2d Amendment merely guarantees it.
For the most part nationwide we can go in a store and buy a long gun or two or three or five or whatever number over the counter and walk out with it/them. Many states and locales can also do the same with handguns. We don't have to belong to a club and participate in organized competitions to "justify" a need. The only training requirements are some counties in some states require training for concealed carry permits.
I would not like to live in a place where I had to put up with nonsensical requirements to buy a gun; or tyrannical storage requirements.
There are various classes of weapons in the USA that we have failed to address. So far in the discussion we have only discussed Title I weapons which are long guns - rifles and shotguns, and handguns.
Title II weapons while legal to own are highly regulated, Registered and taxed. The tax is a one time tax that is generally $200 for the tax stamp for machineguns (which to be transferrable and legal to own must be manufactured before 1986), short barreled rifles or short barreled shotguns.
There are also weapons classified as Destructive Devices,such as cannons, mortars, grenades etc. Some of these are flatout outawed and some not; I am not up on the Title II stuff other than the MG's, SBR's or SBS's.
There are is also a category as AOW, All Other Weapons, in Title II. These are taxed at like $5.00 or some other small amount; my memory fails me. AOW's are typically stockless guns, i.e. Briefcase guns, cane guns etc., novelty type guns.
I know that Canada for the most part makes no or little distinction between classes of weapons, barrel lengths etc. I have heard Canadians in years past, when they were "free-er" to own guns comment on all of our nit pic specificatons on firearm classifications.
yana wrote:Its easy in Holland; a carry permit ís possible, but only theoretically, cause in practice, no one can get it..;)
Only government carries here.
The same practice is followed in some jurisdictions in the United States. If you're sufficiently rich and/or famous, though, you can get a permit. Every few years, someone does a story in the press listing all the publicly anti-gun actors and high-profile businessfolks who have obtained permits to carry. It's always a funny read.
Can I reasonably assume that similar exceptions are made for the rich and famous in Holland?
As an aside, I'd like to reiterate a point that has been made but, imo, insufficiently stressed in this thread. Many responders are from the U.S. and know this automatically but people from elsewhere may not realize that U.S. firearms laws vary from state to state. There is a set of federal laws that hold everywhere but individual states can add on whatever level of strictness, weirdness, or common sense they choose. What's perfectly legal in some places is likely seen as bizarre and illegal anti-social behavior in others.
Example?
Some years ago, a controversial community organizer in Houston, Texas, decided to lead a protest outside a location where a former First Lady was about to give a speech. In order to force the police to deal with them politely, the protesters all showed up with rifles slung on their backs. Such is perfectly legal in Texas and they were, indeed, treated with great courtesy by the authorities. It made the evening television news in Houston but the only account I can find online nowadays is here: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27722
I doubt such behavior could happen in New York, New Jersey, or California.
The contrast between states is truly amazing at times.
Up until the '70's the sheriff in each county in Indiana issued handgun permits. It was at the sheriff's pleasure to whom one was issued. One sheriff kept refusing to issue to an attorney of an opposing political party. The attorney went to court and challenged the law. The result was that the
law was changed and Indiana is a "shall issue" state. The state police issues the handgun license and must show reason for a denial. If one is an honest upstanding person (probably applies to over 99% of the population) then the license is issued.
God given? What happens if you don't believe in God? Does that lack of belief preclude ownership of firearms? Does it curtail freedom of speech or peaceable assembly? Jefferson referred to inalienable rights endowed by our "Creator"....... not "God.". As for me, my creators were my mom and dad.
What seems obvious from James' post is that once you are accustomed to living in a system such as the one in place in Australia, it becomes the acceptable norm. Ergo, you get the government you "deserve."
The right to own a gun should not be contingent on a belief in God, membership in some club, or an intent to use that gun solely for competition. None of these restrictions are legitimate prerequisities for the safe, ethical and perfectly legal enjoyment of firearms....well at least not in the U.S.A.
JamesH wrote:If someone can't be bothered with a little cost and some paperwork then I'd question why they want a gun in the first place.
Because if you accept a little cost and some paper work, it then becomes a moderate cost and quite a bit of paper work, then it becomes a significant cost and a mountain of paper work. The result is the numbers in your club drop and the sport slowly dies. The anti gunners win by strangulation.
James, I travelled to Aus to shoot pistols about 15 times from 1988 till 2006 and each time the amount of paper work I had to fill out just to get my pistols in and out has increased. Seriously, it's so bad now it influences my decision as to whether I could be bothered doing it again.
The other thing is the consequences for making a little administration error, I know in Canada these are all criminal offenses under the Criminal Code, so screw up or miss a deadline or expiry and you can find your self in criminal court with murders and rapists get convicted you can do time which usually would mean losing your job having a criminal record which limits your future. Now that you have a criminal record you can no longer own any firearms either.
Many try to compare fun registration and licensing to automobile registration and licensing which are regulator offenses where you pay a small fine and walk away without any criminal record. They definitely are two different animals.
Plus I don't know the last time the swat team smashed into a house because your vehicle or dog license had expired.
orionshooter wrote:God given? What happens if you don't believe in God? Does that lack of belief preclude ownership of firearms? Does it curtail freedom of speech or peaceable assembly? Jefferson referred to inalienable rights endowed by our "Creator"....... not "God.". As for me, my creators were my mom and dad.
What seems obvious from James' post is that once you are accustomed to living in a system such as the one in place in Australia, it becomes the acceptable norm. Ergo, you get the government you "deserve."
The right to own a gun should not be contingent on a belief in God, membership in some club, or an intent to use that gun solely for competition. None of these restrictions are legitimate prerequisities for the safe, ethical and perfectly legal enjoyment of firearms....well at least not in the U.S.A.
I gather that in Germany when you do get a firearms permit they ask you if you would use the gun in self-defense to save your life. The correct and only acceptable answer is "no." Because if you stored the gun properly it would take you so long to get to it and get it loaded that you had time to call the Polizei! So there would be no urgent need to use lethal force to defend yourself.
-pz
As Shakespeare might have said:
Glendower:I can call police from the vasty deep"
Hotspur:"Why, so can I or so can any man. But will they come when you do call for them?"
peterz wrote:I gather that in Germany when you do get a firearms permit they ask you if you would use the gun in self-defense to save your life. The correct and only acceptable answer is "no." Because if you stored the gun properly it would take you so long to get to it and get it loaded that you had time to call the Polizei! So there would be no urgent need to use lethal force to defend yourself.
I'm not aware of such a question here in Finland, but would expect the only acceptable answer to be exactly the same. And it's not simply logical thinking. You could also ask, if you are standing at a legal shooting range shooting paper targets, and you were threatened with a gun, would you consider using your gun for self defence? The correct answer would probably still be the same.
I don't know what happened to our society and many other western ones during the last few decades. People are expected to live a theoretical life in a theoretical environment where exceptions don't happen. Laws are made to reflect averages, and in any exceptional situation the private citizen is in trouble. No provisions are made for people to take care of themselves. And it's not just self defence situations, gun ownership or the kind, it's pretty much about everything.
I kinda agree with James; with setting up time limits etc, like our min 1 yr limit, ánd declaration of behaviour to begin with, you can filter out quite some people you dont wánt on a gunclub.
Its same here reg self defense; if you use yr legal guns for that, you'll loose yr licence. Period.
Costs here are: each yr $5, and $5 for each new subscription (max of 5 guns). Ammo and gunclub costs are FAR more expensive! Allthough Holland dóest have a gunhistory, we stíll have 10 thousands sport shooters with FA.
Well in NY where I live-takes about 10 months to get a permit.
you go put money down on the gun and fill out the paperwork and submit it.
You have to be fingerprinted and a national check and if there is anything on you like disturbing the peace ot any mis. then you won't get it. you have to have references-no police family members or any family member that holds office can vouch for you.
It had to be signed by two detectives before but I don't know about now.
even at a gun show you have to be checked.
I'm older than most here and I remember what freedom was.
They used to call it the land of the free but the politicians have taken that freedom from us. A lot of us fought for it and some of our friends died for it but they take it from us without recourse because we don't stand together and vote them out and say no-you are not going to do this anymore. What a shame.
The legislation has changed considerably in the last 20 years due in part to events beyond the control of your average shooter.
You used to be able join a club wait 3 months apply for license buy gun get temporary permit take gun in to police station to be registered end of story.
Now you have to join a club, join a national shooting body, belong to both for a least six months before applying for your license then wait another 40-90 days to get your license.
So far even before I have my gun I had to pay
$80 for membership to National body
$170 for club membership
$200 for use of club gun during waiting period
$160 to apply for license
$180 for safes to store gun
$20 for license card
Now if I had to fork out $800 odd dollars in one hit I wouldn't have bothered taking up the sport again fortunately this cost has been spread over 8 months
No if I wasn't so determined and able to afford it the whole process would have put me off.
I bet it does put a lot of honest people off taking up the sport of pistol shooting.
I'm all for laws but there should be a resonable balance between too lax and too strict and costly
James, don't try to make sense of it any more. Once the Second Amendment comes into the conversation it's game over.
It's a pity Canada doesn't have a swell constitution like ours, so you can have a swell homicide rate like ours. Pity. I guess that's the price one pays for democracy. Maybe someday Canada can have a swell democracy like ours, too. ;-)
JamesH wrote:Apart from table tennis there aren't many sports where the entry cost is below $1,000, most are a lot higher.
You won't get a half decent mountain bike and all the gear for under $1k, set of golf clubs, membership etc etc.
Its a spurious argument.
Please note that trevorw's calculation did not include any gear except the safe. The rest is bureaucracy. What if you'd need a driver's license for a mountain bike? Well, unfortunately, I wouldn't be that surprised if that happened in Finland one day. Just about everything is becoming regulated. It's not long ago you could ride mopeds (small, restricted power and speed motorbikes and scooters) as long as you were 15 or older. Then a license with traffic rules exam was required. Last year the requirements were extended to mandatory training and a test ride. The cost went first from zero to about a hundred euros and then to several hundred. I don't know if any practical improvement in road safety was achieved, but certainly the cost of something that's traditionally been important for teenagers has gone up dramatically. Nobody in the politics ever considers the costs imposed on private citizens. And bureaucracy is probably considered an advantage, it's just employment opportunities!
Back to guns, of course, that's what we are talking about. Just yesterday I heard that the police had requested the military passport (actually it's just a certificate of military service, not a real passport of any kind) as a part of the paperwork when a friend of mine applied for a new gun permit. Whoa, that won't prove a thing about anyone. Military service is not mandatory, it's not a requirement for a gun permit by the law, and the passport does not contain information about the person's mental state or anything. My guess is that this is just another quirk to make the applicants life a bit more complicated. How many Finns remember where their military passport is. I don't...
Yes Mika and it's all done in the name of common sense and safety. The lobbiest get in there and see it as a cash cow for their clients, then something simple just keeps growing like a cancer and each additional item is just "common sense".
JamesH wrote:Apart from table tennis there aren't many sports where the entry cost is below $1,000, most are a lot higher.
You won't get a half decent mountain bike and all the gear for under $1k, set of golf clubs, membership etc etc.
Its a spurious argument.
I can name quite a few, martial arts for one, my gi cost $50, my annual club fees where $300 and I trained twice a week. Shore fishing is another less than $1000 for all my gear but cost isn't the only issue
Remember this is before purchasing equipment such as your gun, ammo, cleaning kit, range bag etc
It seems the Govt is going out of it's way to deter shooting as a hobby because of isolated incidents.
I would say unequivically that more people are killed by cars in this country than by licensed shooters and those drivers are licensed and have to undergo 3-6 months training before they can get a license.
What would happen if the same laws applied to drivers imagine the furore.
It's all mute anyway I can only see the laws in this country getting stricter in years to come as we really don't have the lobby groups and voting power.
This place is they reserve spots at the bar for people that go outside and smoke. And most of these patriots are not even eating at the bar!! I suggest they only reserve places at the bar to those guest eating at the bar!!!!! As far as the price for food/ drinks, this place is somewhat affordable.
