I wanted to follow up on some talk I made earlier about brass not being consistant in 32 Long. I trimmed 120 Lapua already fired cases to .910 and fired 60 rounds per week in competition plus some experimentation. After about 8 weeks of putting any brass that measured more than .912 in a different box, I am down to less than the 60. The part that I can't figure out is why some brass immediately jumped to .915 and others have lasted all of these firings staying at .910 and one case has gone all the way back to .908 with many of them being .909.
I did get a pile of new Lapua brass and measure all of them and put them in seperate buckets to see how much varience there is when new. The acceptable length according to the manual is .910 to .920.
What I got is as follows.
.910----1
.911----1
.912----1
.913----2
.914----15
.915----51
.916----214
.917----182
.918----62
.919----3
These were all sized first in a Lee .002 larger than stock die. I had to size them because they come belled from the factory. One of the things that made me wonder is why the short ones weren't flared too little and the long ones not flared too much. I wonder if a variety of different lots are all dumped in a bin and loaded in boxes from there.
While I was at it I measured some new FC brass and it was quite consistant although I only measured a dozen or so. I don't however recommend FC brass unless you are shooting .312 or smaller bullets. It is thicker brass and doesn't expand far enough for what I am loading. I was kind of curious if anyone has tried Hirtenberger brass and what it is like. -- Bill --
32 Long Brass
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
When I used a 32 S&WL first in a Walther GSP and later in a Pardini HP I could not see any significant difference in accuracy between the Lapua brass and the W-W or R-P brass. I never measured nor trimmed the cases. If I remember correctly Don Nyhgord used W-W brass in his loads and I wish I could shoot as well as he did.
It will make all the difference in the world based on the gun that is being shot. I expect that the FC cases would be excellent if shooting a .314 were not necessary. They seemed to be more consistant in length than the lapua. I don't have any other kind of new brass to compare but some out there might. I have noticed that already fired RP and Magtech CBC, are both easier to run a .3135 expander into than the FC but I don't know if that is due to size or thickness or resistance of the brass but I suspect thickness. I do know that Dave Wilson suggests Lapua cases and he has had a lot of experience. I have shot 25 round groups of trimmed and untrimmed Lapua brass and the difference at 50 yards was just about double. From a little over 2 inches at 50 yard to right at 4 inches. In my experience it could have been a lot worse with occasional flyers that dissappear with trimming. This might not be noticed by the average shooter unless tested with an RR or scope but double is a lot of difference even though it is only 2 inches. What distance was Don shooting
Re: 32 Long Brass
Bill,oldcaster wrote:I was kind of curious if anyone has tried Hirtenberger brass and what it is like. -- Bill --
I have no experience with this brass. But several years ago, I checked several brands of USA-made .32 brass vs Lapua brass. The short story then was that Lapua was far more consistent than any of the American brass.
Stan
One of my friends is ordering some things from Larrys this week so I told him to get 100 of the Hirtenbergers just to check them out. What has me in a tizzy is how inconsistant the brass is growing. At first I thought it was about even but now i really don't know what to think. Sometimes a .005 jump in one use and sometimes none. My next experiment is to try some new Lapua brass and watch what it does shooting only the same amount in each case. I have some thoughts that it is quite possible that Dave Wilson has the good results with his barrels because being tighter, the bullet has no opportunity to tip. I have never checked the leade on one of these guns but there might be lot of room for the brass to release inconsistantly making it necessary to have everything perfect so that it won't. -- Bill --
Asking around a group of local shooters who reload .32SWL, about half experience slight case shortening and half experience slight case lengthening. The difference is probably due to variations in the dimensions of the dies and wall thickness of the cases used by the individual reloader - i.e. 'tighter' dies and thicker brass seems to shorten.
The remaining cases (most) of my original lot of (30 year old) Lapua brass in this calibre has been reloaded ++100 times and is on average about .005" shorter than it was when trimmed to .915" before its first use.
The remaining cases (most) of my original lot of (30 year old) Lapua brass in this calibre has been reloaded ++100 times and is on average about .005" shorter than it was when trimmed to .915" before its first use.
I have some new unfired brass loaded for the first check, but haven't had the chance to try them because of too much other shooting activity. I still didn't get any Hirtenberger brass yet either. I might just have to swallow all the shipping myself to get some. All of my new Lapua brass is .914 because that covered most of it. Only a few were shorter. I will come back and post when I get something definitive although that is saying a lot because as we all know you can't just shoot 5 and think everything is fine because the next 5 can be completely different.- Bill -
With that particular barrel you may avoid all of the problems with trimming brass. For one thing, it isn't necessary to have an oversize die or oversize expander to fit a .314 bullet in there. Dave Wilson has had good results with taper crimping and he writes that .325 is the correct crimp. I tried that and it wasn't as good for me as the roll crimp, accuracy wise or feeding but that is with a factory barre and .314l. I have a 6 inch .312 barrel sitting here looking at me but it might wind up being 32 APC instead of 32 long. 3 of us are doing this but we will do one at a time to see if we get positive results. I am shooting, casting and reloading too much to get what all I want done but maybe this winter things will happen. -- Bill --
We loaded up 60 rounds using DW's suggested .325 taper crimp and our results were less than perfect in both accuracy and even had at least 1 in each 10 shot set that didnt feed 100% compared with a few my friend had that were roll crimped but i never measured them before shooting so How much of a roll are you using that have the best accuracy? And what is the best case length to use, i plan on trimming some to test. thanksoldcaster wrote:With that particular barrel you may avoid all of the problems with trimming brass. For one thing, it isn't necessary to have an oversize die or oversize expander to fit a .314 bullet in there. Dave Wilson has had good results with taper crimping and he writes that .325 is the correct crimp. I tried that and it wasn't as good for me as the roll crimp, accuracy wise or feeding but that is with a factory barre and .314l. I have a 6 inch .312 barrel sitting here looking at me but it might wind up being 32 APC instead of 32 long. 3 of us are doing this but we will do one at a time to see if we get positive results. I am shooting, casting and reloading too much to get what all I want done but maybe this winter things will happen. -- Bill --
I don't know if I can give more than an opinion on case length because I haven't done enough testing to be definitive. My first group of cases were trimmed to .910 because some where near that length. I only had a little over 100 and finally I ruined enough and lost enough to get 500 new ones. I think the best idea is to trim them all to a length so you won't lose any amount. I went with .914 because that only made me lose about a dozen.
I just fired some Saturday for some testing and I think I botched the test because after I loaded all the bullets, I noticed that I had seated them about .023 past the case. That may or may not have skewed my results but I shot the load that I consider my benchmark and it was lousy at about 6 inches so I feel like I didn't acomplish anything. I loaded some H&N for my base, some Dardas .314, and some Saeco with hard lube. I basically wanted to test the hard lube and Dardas against the H&N to see if they would stack up. I have already proven that the soft lubed Saeco's are good and I got fair results out of the Dardas before I got into trimming. I would get decent groups(about 4 inches) and get all excited and then get flyers the second time.
Like you I had alibi trouble with taper crimping. It might just be a Benelli thing. I don't know how to tell you an amount of roll crimp other than just enough to make it reliable. In my gun it doesn't seem to be too much but a friend with the same gun has more crimp on his bullets because he complained about jams. It might be a case length thing too and I don't know yet.
I wonder if the case can be too long and not open up correctly because of too short of a chamber. I will find out the next time I test and I hope my bad results were because of wrong OAL. Sometime this week I hope to redo the exact same test and I think I will take some of the old .910 cases and do the same loads in them at the same time.
Unfortunately when I decided to try taper crimp I wasn't careful to retain the setting on the roll crimp die so I am kind of back close to square one again too. To me it seems far fetched that .004 different in case length can cause all of this along with minor changes in roll crimp and having my OAL too long but something is happening because my testing always involves 20 rounds to a group before I am willing to say I know what I am doing and previously I had good results. Let me know if you learn anything also so everyone can digest all the info and make adjustments that work. -- Bill --
I just fired some Saturday for some testing and I think I botched the test because after I loaded all the bullets, I noticed that I had seated them about .023 past the case. That may or may not have skewed my results but I shot the load that I consider my benchmark and it was lousy at about 6 inches so I feel like I didn't acomplish anything. I loaded some H&N for my base, some Dardas .314, and some Saeco with hard lube. I basically wanted to test the hard lube and Dardas against the H&N to see if they would stack up. I have already proven that the soft lubed Saeco's are good and I got fair results out of the Dardas before I got into trimming. I would get decent groups(about 4 inches) and get all excited and then get flyers the second time.
Like you I had alibi trouble with taper crimping. It might just be a Benelli thing. I don't know how to tell you an amount of roll crimp other than just enough to make it reliable. In my gun it doesn't seem to be too much but a friend with the same gun has more crimp on his bullets because he complained about jams. It might be a case length thing too and I don't know yet.
I wonder if the case can be too long and not open up correctly because of too short of a chamber. I will find out the next time I test and I hope my bad results were because of wrong OAL. Sometime this week I hope to redo the exact same test and I think I will take some of the old .910 cases and do the same loads in them at the same time.
Unfortunately when I decided to try taper crimp I wasn't careful to retain the setting on the roll crimp die so I am kind of back close to square one again too. To me it seems far fetched that .004 different in case length can cause all of this along with minor changes in roll crimp and having my OAL too long but something is happening because my testing always involves 20 rounds to a group before I am willing to say I know what I am doing and previously I had good results. Let me know if you learn anything also so everyone can digest all the info and make adjustments that work. -- Bill --
Taper Crimp
Greetings,
Just finished testing two barrels last weekend. Both seem to work okay with my taper crimp of 0.325". I must admit, loading the 32 is not as easy as the 45 ACP.
I do not care for the roll crimp as it works the case mouth too much leading to early cracks. Also, the taper crimp process is very forgiving of case length. Since 1994, I have yet to trim a 32 S&W Long case. Mine vary in length from 0.912" to 0.920".
With more experimentation I think you will find the determining factor to be the bullet.
Both barrels are for the Pardini HP. Material used is a Douglas Stainless 14 twist blank of 0.311" groove diameter.
Both targets fired at 50 yards.
Cheers,
Dave
Just finished testing two barrels last weekend. Both seem to work okay with my taper crimp of 0.325". I must admit, loading the 32 is not as easy as the 45 ACP.
I do not care for the roll crimp as it works the case mouth too much leading to early cracks. Also, the taper crimp process is very forgiving of case length. Since 1994, I have yet to trim a 32 S&W Long case. Mine vary in length from 0.912" to 0.920".
With more experimentation I think you will find the determining factor to be the bullet.
Both barrels are for the Pardini HP. Material used is a Douglas Stainless 14 twist blank of 0.311" groove diameter.
Both targets fired at 50 yards.
Cheers,
Dave
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So far with a 32 I have had better results with a roll crimp but I didn't waste a lot of time trying the taper on the 32. I had trouble with crimping only to .325 and don't know how much more I would have had to go to correct the alibis.
I did have worse accuracy when I did a side by side test with roll and taper crimp and since I did it at the same time I respect the results. I didn't however come up with the same die that Dave specified because I couldn't find the same number so maybe the degrees of taper are different and that is the problem. The taper crimp die I used was an RCBS-32 S&W L T-C-5. I would certainly like to TC and get good results because trimming brass is a tough thing to do since they don't grow consistantly or at least I don't think they do. Since I am now using new brass and am keeping track of the firings, I will find out exactly what they do.
The best I have done so far shooting my Benneli at 50 yards with an 8 power scope is right at 2" for ten shots and it is the same every time so Dave is getting better results than I am although I am using a stock barrel. If I don't trim I will get flyers that might make the group 10 or more inches. There's unfortunately only so much time in a week and experimentation has to be done precisely and one change at a time to prove what is going on so conclusions aren't jumped at.
When I shoot a 38 I use a roll crimp and get the same results with a 158 grain bullet and 148 HBWC --- 2 inches 10 shots 50 yards. Taper wouldn't work on the 158 because there is a crimping groove.
When I shoot my 45 I must use a taper crimp because it will alibi without it but only my Les Baer wad gun has this problem. I previously shot a lot of good groups out of other guns with dies that seat and crimp at the same time.
I get the same accuracy with a Saeco 100 as I do with the H&N .314 bullet and reasonably decent with the Dardas .314 and pretty terrible with everything else.
What I am curious about is whether the new Pardini 32 ACP will be accurate with lead bullets. Dave, have you played with one of these yet.
I did have worse accuracy when I did a side by side test with roll and taper crimp and since I did it at the same time I respect the results. I didn't however come up with the same die that Dave specified because I couldn't find the same number so maybe the degrees of taper are different and that is the problem. The taper crimp die I used was an RCBS-32 S&W L T-C-5. I would certainly like to TC and get good results because trimming brass is a tough thing to do since they don't grow consistantly or at least I don't think they do. Since I am now using new brass and am keeping track of the firings, I will find out exactly what they do.
The best I have done so far shooting my Benneli at 50 yards with an 8 power scope is right at 2" for ten shots and it is the same every time so Dave is getting better results than I am although I am using a stock barrel. If I don't trim I will get flyers that might make the group 10 or more inches. There's unfortunately only so much time in a week and experimentation has to be done precisely and one change at a time to prove what is going on so conclusions aren't jumped at.
When I shoot a 38 I use a roll crimp and get the same results with a 158 grain bullet and 148 HBWC --- 2 inches 10 shots 50 yards. Taper wouldn't work on the 158 because there is a crimping groove.
When I shoot my 45 I must use a taper crimp because it will alibi without it but only my Les Baer wad gun has this problem. I previously shot a lot of good groups out of other guns with dies that seat and crimp at the same time.
I get the same accuracy with a Saeco 100 as I do with the H&N .314 bullet and reasonably decent with the Dardas .314 and pretty terrible with everything else.
What I am curious about is whether the new Pardini 32 ACP will be accurate with lead bullets. Dave, have you played with one of these yet.
Taper vs. Roll Crimp
Greetings,
Functioning is paramount and a roll crimp does have the advantage over a taper crimp.
I seat my bullets flush to the case mouth. Since my old and tired cases are of different lengths, some will be slightly above and below the case mouth.
I have a Haemmerli 280, Haemmerli SP-20, and two Walther GSP-C pistols. All of them function fine with taper crimped ammunition in both the factory (big chambers) and my custom (tight chamber) barrels.
Cheers,
Dave
Functioning is paramount and a roll crimp does have the advantage over a taper crimp.
I seat my bullets flush to the case mouth. Since my old and tired cases are of different lengths, some will be slightly above and below the case mouth.
I have a Haemmerli 280, Haemmerli SP-20, and two Walther GSP-C pistols. All of them function fine with taper crimped ammunition in both the factory (big chambers) and my custom (tight chamber) barrels.
Cheers,
Dave
Hirtenberger brass
Picked up 300 rds Hirtenberger brass from Larry's. I find the primer pockets very tight and it take LOTS of force to seat primer completely. 3 out of 75 cases STUCK to my .312 expander die and had to be cut off. Anybody know why?... have a remedy? I'm thinking lube like rifle brass?