No wonder I cry myself to sleep

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:14 pm

I was AP training with John Zurek last night. He was using a Scatt.

After watching his action on the computer screen for a while, it finally dawned on me why he's so good.

His hold was almost perfect. It hovered over the ten ring, once in a while drifting out to the nine (mostly scratched tens). When he touched off the shot it was no different than his hold. You could see no trace of any motion from the trigger squeeze.

Quite a difference from my dissipated wanderings.

Just thought I'd tell you guys to make you feel bad.

Bob-Riegl · Post by **Bob-Riegl** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:58 pm

Yup, that's the difference---I watch some local shooters in AP & FP hold and let-off and shake my head in wonder with their results. Some of my friends watch me shooting and they also marvel at my "perfect" trigger let-off and shudder along with me at the end results. That's why I say a prayer before I shoot: "Lord forgive me for what I am about to do"---it doesn't help much, but at least I have settled my accounts with the Chief Range Officer before I commit atrocities in the name of shooting. "Doc"

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:22 pm

Rover wrote:His hold was almost perfect.

That hold didn't come from what he was doing on the night. It comes from the training he has done in previous weeks/months/years, and a bit of ability ;-)

SteveT · Post by **SteveT** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:30 pm

Target Shooting is a journey, not a destination. If you are improving, you are doing well. It doesn't matter if you are trying to shoot 400 for the first time or trying to shoot 590.

Think about this: If he consistently settles in the 10 ring and his trigger doesn't move the gun then why doesn't he shoot perfect 600's? The answer is he makes the same mistakes as all of the rest of it.

He is more advanced, so when he jerks the trigger, forces the shot, holds too long or loses concentration it is a 9 or maybe an 8. For most of us the same mistakes cost more points. Nonetheless, what matters is continuing to work and continuing to improve.

best regards,
Steve Turner

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:51 pm

I guess that's why he put in a four hour training session.

trinity · Post by **trinity** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:02 pm

I am curious, do you remember what his Scatt trace lengths were?

-trinity

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:28 pm

They were different lengths, but stayed well inside the nine ring. The best
(when he was settled) were contained within the ten ring

david alaways · Post by **david alaways** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:27 pm

Hes practicing for 4 hrs because he knows Im coming down to whoop his butt this weekend. My first trip out of the PHX airport. Coming down to WHOOP on Rover too. Ive got see if hes as ugly as John says. " YOU TELL THEM IM COMING AND HELLS COMING WITH ME" or just my FP and AP.

Darkhorse · Post by **Darkhorse** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:41 pm

Who are you his hype man?

BEA · Post by **BEA** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:22 pm

The Scatt system is very interesting indeed. In my limited experience with one, I found it to be a double edged sword. When you are shooting well, they tell you all kinds of stuff you like knowing. When I was shooting poorly, the system told me all sorts of stuff that I did not want to know. I found all this information about what I was doing wrong to be a distraction and demoralizing. I am not putting the system down, don't misunderstand, but it is not necessarily a good training tool for everyone. If someone has limited opportunities to live fire, I can see that it would be nice to have. However, for me, if I have the chance to live fire regularly, a Scatt would be less beneficial. I guess my only point here is this, don't necessarily expect the system to make you a better shooter...it may give you more to worry about. There is such a thing as information overload. I think the most valuable info the system provides is related to trigger control. It will show you if the shot is breaking within your normal movement, or if you are pulling it outside your zone...but dry firing helps in this area too. Bottom line, it is an individual thing. Try one before making the investment and decide if it will actually be a useful tool.

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:05 pm

You get 'im, Dave!

Roger

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:05 pm

Dave, you may not be aware that we will have the opportunity to fire all five guns each day; in other words to shoot the matches twice.

This will give you the golden opportunity to get your butt whipped (in AP and FP) at least eight times by me and John (or more depending on who else shows up).

david alaways · Post by **david alaways** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:35 pm

I suggest you put some padding in your panties!!!

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:30 pm

It's all over but the shouting. It's true that Alaways beat me (but not Zurek).

I think it's shameful that he would gloat over beating a poor old man.

Next time, Dave!

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:57 pm

A Scatt or Rika or a Noptel will tell you what you are capable of, and should ideally give you more confidence in live fire.

What it won't tell you is how you change your shot process when you get under pressure in a match and start losing confidence in your hold or the other things we do when we anticipate a bullet going down range. For me, this usually includes tightening my grip on the gun. I can get away with this in sustained fire because the ten ring is so damn big but tightening my grip or "loitering" on the trigger are death on my slow fire scores.

BEA · Post by **BEA** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:18 am

Other than enabling the user to shoot a dry match (which is good), it seems that these training systems are more focused on the physical aspect of shooting, movement area, hold time, etc. Once you get the phycical parts of it down, then comes the hardest part which are mental challenges. It would be interesting to know if many of the top shooters use these systems. My guess, and I emphasize guess, is that most of them do not because they have advanced beyond this point. For someone who is an intermediate shooter (570ish), one of these systems would give some insight as to what is going on. However, if someone is a regular 580 shooter, I think it would be of little use because the only limiting factor at this point is the mind. Based on this, I think these type training systems may be best for the intermediate shooter. For the beginning shooter, they might be too disheartening because they emphasize movement (I found it to be a bit that way at times). For the advance shooter, they may provide information that the shooter has already been gotten past, or "mastered". At this point, the physical aspects have become 2nd nature.

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 2:59 am

Whilst your right in that the edge on performance is mental, the technical bit still matters. If you don't check your process you won't know if you've slipped into bad habits, and even world class shooters will do that. Scatt can also be very useful to track someones training. The year is split into cycles with different training processes being performed throughout the year, so it can be very helpful to check that throughout the year. Also if technical no longer mattered all the top shooting coaches would 'just' be sports psychlogists...

Rob.

david alaways · Post by **david alaways** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:06 pm

Back to the not so serious side of this thread! Shooting in Az. was great. The club was the best ive been to. The people where great . Even rover is a really nice guy. (he just needs to learn how to handle a firearm) (nice way of saying he needs to learn how to shoot) Brenda Silva only yelled at me a couple times but that was counter acted by Clarence. Clarence was a joy to be around , a figure skater turned shooter. A french skater with an accent to melt any man. ( none of this post gets back to the wife). Personalities like hers makes shooting fun. personalities like Rovers makes shooting fun. ) John Zurek lives on the range And I was able to stay with him. I shot way to much and after 10 hrs of shooting we finally shoot an AP match ( my scores showed it). After starting the FP match my gun stopped working . Zurek seeing i was having a problem came in and disassembled my gun fixed it for me. How many ranges will that happen at? GREAT TRIP I cant wait to do it again at the midwinter championships.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:30 pm

Yeah, Dave, come back and see us. I'll even buy you a beer to make up for leaving before I had a chance to really abuse you.

Great fun at the Desert Midwinter and we'll take you to a Mexican restaurant that will have you screaming for mercy and ice cream the next day.

Great balls of fire!!!

Dev · Post by **Dev** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:32 am

Never thought I would see the day when Rover would call himself an old man to excuse his shooting :-). So John beat your butt eh? Wish I was there to see it.

Had mine whipped at the North Zone tournament. Lack of practice really shows, all I could do was celebrate shooting the reoccurring 5, 6, 7...woww its been so long since I shot a five...yeehaw another 7! End of tourney year for 2011 for me.

Will begin all over again next year. Warm regards to all you crazy people who let holes in paper drive you to manic depression :-).
I am off to shoot cans with my scoped air rifle (haa...hah...haa no more scoring rings...ahar... :-). )

Dev

TargetTalk

No wonder I cry myself to sleep

No wonder I cry myself to sleep

Re: No wonder I cry myself to sleep

Re: No wonder I cry myself to sleep

practice

Scatt

crying!

Old man rover, he keeps on going...