Dear TTers,
First I'll introduce myself. I'm a c. 40 year old shooter from Israel, and have been shooting 10m air pistol for a year. I learned the trade with a FWB65 and now use a Walther LP400. I also shoot IPSC Production division. Since getting serious in Olympic shooting, I have quit flying as my primary hobby. IMO shooting is more fun, more social and less dangerous than flying a light aircraft, but that's another story.
As I'm beginning to mature and like the sport, and some of my pellets are finally reaching the wall at the other end of the range (scoring about 530-540 in training right now), I was thinking about further development in Olympic pistol disciplines beside air pistol. My club (which also shoots IPSC) wants to open a rapid fire squad, but free pistol appeals to me, at least from first glance.
Now where you folks can be of assistance. Some of my questions may sound a bit odd, but there are still many things in which I feel I am a greenhorn:
1. To this day I have yet to fire a free pistol. The complication in my case is that although my club owns a handful of TOZ 35s, they are all right hand grips, so adopting this new sport is no spontaneous affair - I will have to order a nice medium sized LH grip for the TOZ 35. Any recommendations here are welcome (including instructions on how to measure one's hand for ordering).
2. What can I expect in FP that is different to AP? I was thinking on the lines of different trigger staging and more of a tendency to flinch because of noise, but experienced shooters can contribute and elaborate more. Does the shooting eye have to work more given the usually thinner front sights and altered apparent bull's eye size? How important a factor is wind on a sheltered range?
3. Does the TOZ 35 have enough life left in it vis-a-vis parts and mods to function for another 50 years of shooting, or should I think of a more exotic pistol?
4. Also please tell me if you think I should stick to and concentrate on AP and IPSC for now rather than take up a new discipline. For the record, although IPSC is every exciting both to participate and watch, I prefer AP.
Any more tips would be welcome.
Best,
Lior
Southpaw transitioning from AP to FP - tips welcome
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Hi lior,
Like you, i started with AP before i bought my own Free Pistol.
some tips my side as answers to your questions.
1) Don't buy a left handed grip for a TOZ. Instead buy your own free pistol with the right(in your case a left one) grip. A free pistol is a pistol which you have to mold and transform to your body and hand. I think dat a TOZ would not last another 50 years so this answers also question 3. It's hard to get spare parts and i know shooters who are fixing their broken toz with paperclips.
today there are 3 free pistols, the morini CM84e, pardini and hammerli FP60.
i own a morini and i think this is the best pistol you can buy these days. Iám now shooting for one year with a 500 average and still liking it every day
2) the biggest difference in free pistol is the triggerpressure, or should i say no triggerpressure. the modern free pistols have a pressure of 5 grams!!. An air pistol is set to 500 gram, so you can see the difference.
Also the barrel is much longer which makes the pistol shake a lot more.
you have to get used to this. the eyework is not different for a free pistol. If you use shootingglasses with a diafragma you wil see that there is not so much difference. wind can influence your score but outside ranges need windflags.
3) see answer 1
4) if you like to shoot matches which take 2 houres and don't have a problem with loading the gun shot by shot and you prefer ap above ipsc and money is no problem then i would go for it. i certainly have no regrets of buying the free pistol. instead i'm preferring fp above ap.
what is important is that your club has a 50 meter range. shooting fp on a 25 meter range is not the real thing.
good luck
madmull
Like you, i started with AP before i bought my own Free Pistol.
some tips my side as answers to your questions.
1) Don't buy a left handed grip for a TOZ. Instead buy your own free pistol with the right(in your case a left one) grip. A free pistol is a pistol which you have to mold and transform to your body and hand. I think dat a TOZ would not last another 50 years so this answers also question 3. It's hard to get spare parts and i know shooters who are fixing their broken toz with paperclips.
today there are 3 free pistols, the morini CM84e, pardini and hammerli FP60.
i own a morini and i think this is the best pistol you can buy these days. Iám now shooting for one year with a 500 average and still liking it every day
2) the biggest difference in free pistol is the triggerpressure, or should i say no triggerpressure. the modern free pistols have a pressure of 5 grams!!. An air pistol is set to 500 gram, so you can see the difference.
Also the barrel is much longer which makes the pistol shake a lot more.
you have to get used to this. the eyework is not different for a free pistol. If you use shootingglasses with a diafragma you wil see that there is not so much difference. wind can influence your score but outside ranges need windflags.
3) see answer 1
4) if you like to shoot matches which take 2 houres and don't have a problem with loading the gun shot by shot and you prefer ap above ipsc and money is no problem then i would go for it. i certainly have no regrets of buying the free pistol. instead i'm preferring fp above ap.
what is important is that your club has a 50 meter range. shooting fp on a 25 meter range is not the real thing.
good luck
madmull
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chuckjordan
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:00 pm
- Location: Central Virginia
My thoughts from a LH shooter.
I too am a LH shooter but only 51. I have been heavy into AP this year and a few months ago started FP with a TOZ35. I too am looking for LH grips.
I choose the TOZ35 as it's still being used by top competitors. I believe the top US shooters use it too. If you check ISSF TV (now on uTube) many competitors are still using it too. So, this is reassuring.
While my used (and new to me) TOZ35 is slightly rusty, it's being reblued. If it lasts another 30 years, I'll be happy.
If I last 50 more years with the same TOZ35, I'll be estatic.
Just get LH grips and shoot it. You can always buy new in the future, but, since your club has them try them out. You'll never know if you like it until you try it :-)
I choose the TOZ35 as it's still being used by top competitors. I believe the top US shooters use it too. If you check ISSF TV (now on uTube) many competitors are still using it too. So, this is reassuring.
While my used (and new to me) TOZ35 is slightly rusty, it's being reblued. If it lasts another 30 years, I'll be happy.
If I last 50 more years with the same TOZ35, I'll be estatic.
Just get LH grips and shoot it. You can always buy new in the future, but, since your club has them try them out. You'll never know if you like it until you try it :-)
left handed grips for TOZ freepistols can be purchased at:
http://www.formgriffe.de/shpSR.php?sfC= ... 255&p2=255
if you look at issf matches (youtube) 90% off the finalist use The Morini CM84E
madmull
http://www.formgriffe.de/shpSR.php?sfC= ... 255&p2=255
if you look at issf matches (youtube) 90% off the finalist use The Morini CM84E
madmull
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chuckjordan
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:00 pm
- Location: Central Virginia
There is no disadvantage to starting with the TOZ35. Equipment will not automatically make you a better shooter.
Funny, the German and Serbian shooter here are using the TOZ35: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSQm5unqo-M So 2 out of 8 used the TOZ35? This is the 2011 Stage 6 WC Finals, and BTW, Serbia won the silver.
I think you'd agree that practice is what's really needed in FP. So, why not save the money (from not buying the Morini) and put it towards a case of practice ammo? Once you peak with it, then look around for another.
If you have the money to buy the Morini and a case or two of Tenex, by all means do so!
The bottom line is: Enjoy FP!
Funny, the German and Serbian shooter here are using the TOZ35: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSQm5unqo-M So 2 out of 8 used the TOZ35? This is the 2011 Stage 6 WC Finals, and BTW, Serbia won the silver.
I think you'd agree that practice is what's really needed in FP. So, why not save the money (from not buying the Morini) and put it towards a case of practice ammo? Once you peak with it, then look around for another.
If you have the money to buy the Morini and a case or two of Tenex, by all means do so!
The bottom line is: Enjoy FP!
So, you have invested in a Walther 400. Seems to me that you are taking this shooting serious, then a NEW free pistol will be the best way to go!
Old TOZ and a new grip will only cost half of a CM84E but you will then always be in doubt if you did the right thing. It will be easier to sell a used 84E the day you feel so. A MG5 is lighter, cheaper and a nice free pistol.
You do not need Tenex ammo! Standard will take you all the way.
Kent
Old TOZ and a new grip will only cost half of a CM84E but you will then always be in doubt if you did the right thing. It will be easier to sell a used 84E the day you feel so. A MG5 is lighter, cheaper and a nice free pistol.
You do not need Tenex ammo! Standard will take you all the way.
Kent
When in doubt, go cheap!
There are a lot of TOZ floating around, though parts are admittedly hard to find and the Russians never seemed to get the sights on straight. The old Pardini FPs are excellent and ugly, too. You would probably pay about the same either way.
You probably can find one with left hand grips, or trade for them, or find another brand to buy. You're going to have to butcher the grips anyway, no matter what kind you get.
I find that AP is/was great training for FP. It is what got me into that game in the first place.
There are a lot of TOZ floating around, though parts are admittedly hard to find and the Russians never seemed to get the sights on straight. The old Pardini FPs are excellent and ugly, too. You would probably pay about the same either way.
You probably can find one with left hand grips, or trade for them, or find another brand to buy. You're going to have to butcher the grips anyway, no matter what kind you get.
I find that AP is/was great training for FP. It is what got me into that game in the first place.
If you like the challenge of AP, you're in for some real fun.
As for your questions.
Don't go out and buy a LH grip for your club pistols. If you're going to buy a grip you might as well buy a second hand gun to go with that.
My experience is that the differences in the 2 matches are more technically based. Your skills need to be better to shoot FP and you'll find that to be the biggest challenge. Don't worry too much about sight pictures and the different perceptions of the card. Just worry about learning how to shoot a good shot.
The Toz 35 will still be around for a while yet. They are still making new ones and the design hasn't really changed in 30 years. They are still a great gun and will still be far more accurate than you or I in 50 years time.
If you decide you want to get a new gun, don't just get a Morini because everyone else has one. Over the last 20 years there has been very limited choice in the FP market. This is one of the main reasons most people shoot a Morini (don't get me wrong, they are a quality gun.) Today there are a few other brands around that are just as good and may be better for you.
As far as IPSC goes, if you're going to focus on FP and AP then give it up. Time spent on IPSC could be spent on FP and the style of shooting require for IPSC will detract from the work you are doing in FP.
Being a leftie can be curse, it's always more difficult buying a new gun because you just can't try someone else's. But if your systematic about what you do, you'll still make the right choice.
Good luck
As for your questions.
Don't go out and buy a LH grip for your club pistols. If you're going to buy a grip you might as well buy a second hand gun to go with that.
My experience is that the differences in the 2 matches are more technically based. Your skills need to be better to shoot FP and you'll find that to be the biggest challenge. Don't worry too much about sight pictures and the different perceptions of the card. Just worry about learning how to shoot a good shot.
The Toz 35 will still be around for a while yet. They are still making new ones and the design hasn't really changed in 30 years. They are still a great gun and will still be far more accurate than you or I in 50 years time.
If you decide you want to get a new gun, don't just get a Morini because everyone else has one. Over the last 20 years there has been very limited choice in the FP market. This is one of the main reasons most people shoot a Morini (don't get me wrong, they are a quality gun.) Today there are a few other brands around that are just as good and may be better for you.
As far as IPSC goes, if you're going to focus on FP and AP then give it up. Time spent on IPSC could be spent on FP and the style of shooting require for IPSC will detract from the work you are doing in FP.
Being a leftie can be curse, it's always more difficult buying a new gun because you just can't try someone else's. But if your systematic about what you do, you'll still make the right choice.
Good luck
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RandomShotz
- Posts: 553
- Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:24 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
You should also keep in mind that the TOZ has a lot of enthusiasts who love to modify their pistols and then show off what they've done. Both on this forum and the free pistol forum on Yahoo, there are photos and instructions on modifying, upgrading and making replacement parts for the TOZ.
As far as shooting lefty, why not try it on the other hand? If you are like most lefty's, you are probably used to living in a right-handed world with right handed tools, appliances, etc. It should not take too long to get sufficient competence with your right hand to find out if you want to go all the way and buy the equipment yourself. Shooting with your contralateral eye may cause some postural difficulties, but I used to do it and if you have shooting glasses you may be able to force using the non-dominant eye for sighting anyway.
Let us know how things work out.
Roger
As far as shooting lefty, why not try it on the other hand? If you are like most lefty's, you are probably used to living in a right-handed world with right handed tools, appliances, etc. It should not take too long to get sufficient competence with your right hand to find out if you want to go all the way and buy the equipment yourself. Shooting with your contralateral eye may cause some postural difficulties, but I used to do it and if you have shooting glasses you may be able to force using the non-dominant eye for sighting anyway.
Let us know how things work out.
Roger