Eric,
I often find myself involved in discussions about the pro's and con's of a high and low prone position. (I have a preference for a low position, mainly because of my build).
I expect you have intensively experimented with both prone positions. As a top proneshooter are you willing to give us your opinion about the pro's and con's of both high and low prone position? and what can be done to stabilize both positions?
Thanks!
Albert B (The Netherlands)
Q for Eric U on prone position
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Keep in mind that I haven't tried every variation of the prone position. I did have a relatively low position early in my career but didn't start shooting really well until I raised it up some. Any descriptions of left/right below is in reference to a right handed shooter.
Stability in a high position: more like a tripod with the position up on both elbows and the other tripod leg being the lower body. Tripod with a wide base is going to be the most stable configuration.
Stability in a low position: more like a bicycle with a kick-stand. Most of the position is held between lower body and left elbow with just a little weight on the right elbow. Needs to be well balanced.
Pros
high position: weight is a little more off the abdomen so heart beat doesn't push off the mat as much. Important for big matches if your heart-rate gets elevated. Also abdomen off the mat makes it easier to breathe. Head position is more upright giving a better chance of undistorted vision.
low position: none I can think of.
Cons
high position: right elbow position is more critical to get consistent results.
low position: more strain on neck, less optimal head position and thus possible eye strain, more chance of pulse being transmitted into the position.
Low vs. high position: just look at the world cup results. Now I haven't studied other shooters' positions in quite a while, but I only know of one shooter with a low position who regularly makes world level finals: Guy Starik. At the other end of the spectrum is Matt Emmons who has a really high position. His results speak for themselves. My position is probably middle of the road.
Your mileage may vary,
Eric U
Stability in a high position: more like a tripod with the position up on both elbows and the other tripod leg being the lower body. Tripod with a wide base is going to be the most stable configuration.
Stability in a low position: more like a bicycle with a kick-stand. Most of the position is held between lower body and left elbow with just a little weight on the right elbow. Needs to be well balanced.
Pros
high position: weight is a little more off the abdomen so heart beat doesn't push off the mat as much. Important for big matches if your heart-rate gets elevated. Also abdomen off the mat makes it easier to breathe. Head position is more upright giving a better chance of undistorted vision.
low position: none I can think of.
Cons
high position: right elbow position is more critical to get consistent results.
low position: more strain on neck, less optimal head position and thus possible eye strain, more chance of pulse being transmitted into the position.
Low vs. high position: just look at the world cup results. Now I haven't studied other shooters' positions in quite a while, but I only know of one shooter with a low position who regularly makes world level finals: Guy Starik. At the other end of the spectrum is Matt Emmons who has a really high position. His results speak for themselves. My position is probably middle of the road.
Your mileage may vary,
Eric U
Low is going to be anything close to the 30 degree limit. As a shooter you'll know if you're high or low as the weight distribution pattern is quite different. And as we all have different body shapes, one mans medium will be another mans high.justadude wrote:Eric,
Past the pros and cons, in terms of left arm angle or any other metric of your choosing; could you define low vs medium vs high for the prone position?
Thanks,
'Dude
Another low shooter as I recall is Warren Potent.
Rob.
Thank you guys!
I believe it also is depending on the relation between upper-lower arm length. Just like some persons have a short torso and long legs and arms - and visa versa, this is also true for upper- lowerarm length.
If someone (like me) has relative short upperarms and long lowerarms he is forced in a low prone position (even when the upperarm is relatively in a vertical position), and also a low forward bend kneeling position.
I also believe that with the introduction of the thin allu stocks with less stock material under the barrel the lowerarm has to be placed in a larger angle from the surface (more to 45 then 30 degrees) and thereby the position appears to be higher. Most shooters do not seem to use an added piece of material under the fore end in prone. Am I correct in this assumption?
Thanks,
Albert B (The Netherlands)
I believe it also is depending on the relation between upper-lower arm length. Just like some persons have a short torso and long legs and arms - and visa versa, this is also true for upper- lowerarm length.
If someone (like me) has relative short upperarms and long lowerarms he is forced in a low prone position (even when the upperarm is relatively in a vertical position), and also a low forward bend kneeling position.
I also believe that with the introduction of the thin allu stocks with less stock material under the barrel the lowerarm has to be placed in a larger angle from the surface (more to 45 then 30 degrees) and thereby the position appears to be higher. Most shooters do not seem to use an added piece of material under the fore end in prone. Am I correct in this assumption?
Thanks,
Albert B (The Netherlands)
I guess I consider high/low position to be more related to height of upper body & shoulders and not so much forearm angle. My left forearm probably isn't much more than 30 degrees but my shoulder height is A LOT higher than Starik. This has much more to do with left upper arm angle than forearm. When you move your left shoulder higher, then you need to have your right shoulder higher to keep your shoulders level and now you are more up on your right elbow too. That is my definition of a high position.
Emmons uses a block with his aluminum stock to get the rifle up higher.
Eric U
Emmons uses a block with his aluminum stock to get the rifle up higher.
Eric U
Only a quick reply,
But I originally started with a high position. To be honest the only positive I gained from it was back comfort as i felt like my back was more naturally settled.
When i moved to low everything went uphill. Once you start laying down on your tricep instead of your elbow you gain a huge amount of stability. Your body can hardly budge from position and I no longer experienced any shakes when I would first get down to shoot. The flat surface of the tricep i would consider a must, everyone whose tried it at my clubs have improved dramatically. And once you find the right body angle when in a low position you'll find it to be far more comfortable and even with a relatively high starting heart rate, you'll settle quickly and any rifle shakes will be well controlled by your position.
But I originally started with a high position. To be honest the only positive I gained from it was back comfort as i felt like my back was more naturally settled.
When i moved to low everything went uphill. Once you start laying down on your tricep instead of your elbow you gain a huge amount of stability. Your body can hardly budge from position and I no longer experienced any shakes when I would first get down to shoot. The flat surface of the tricep i would consider a must, everyone whose tried it at my clubs have improved dramatically. And once you find the right body angle when in a low position you'll find it to be far more comfortable and even with a relatively high starting heart rate, you'll settle quickly and any rifle shakes will be well controlled by your position.
relation armlength
to clarify my previous post: consider 2 shooters of the same build, the only difference: nr1 has long upperarm and short lowerarm, the other (nr2) has short upperarm anf long lowerarm.
Nr 1 can put his supporting elbow ' far' forward because of his long upperarm, while still lying with his shoulders far from the floor. His lowerarm must be raised considerably to support the stock, or he has to use a block.
Nr2 has to put his elbow close to him, because of his short upperarm, seemingly having a high position (but in reality relatively lower than nr1) while his long lowerarm must be in a small angle to the floor otherwise the rifle would point upwards.
When judging by the angle/position of the arms, what looks like a high position for one shooter can in reality be a low position and v.v.
As Eric says, the hight of the shoulders must be the factor.
As for stability: I find a low position more stable but with a larger risk of putting the right elbow more or less from the body resulting in vertical spread. The high position for me results in less vertical but more horizontal spread as the arms are more vertical and therefor can move sideways more easely.
I guess it comes down to finding the best combination of both.
Albert B (The Netherlands)
Nr 1 can put his supporting elbow ' far' forward because of his long upperarm, while still lying with his shoulders far from the floor. His lowerarm must be raised considerably to support the stock, or he has to use a block.
Nr2 has to put his elbow close to him, because of his short upperarm, seemingly having a high position (but in reality relatively lower than nr1) while his long lowerarm must be in a small angle to the floor otherwise the rifle would point upwards.
When judging by the angle/position of the arms, what looks like a high position for one shooter can in reality be a low position and v.v.
As Eric says, the hight of the shoulders must be the factor.
As for stability: I find a low position more stable but with a larger risk of putting the right elbow more or less from the body resulting in vertical spread. The high position for me results in less vertical but more horizontal spread as the arms are more vertical and therefor can move sideways more easely.
I guess it comes down to finding the best combination of both.
Albert B (The Netherlands)
@Colin instead of getting down and placing your elbow on the mat, push out your connection poitn and lengthen the sling so that you can bring your upper arm lower to the ground, place your elbow first on the mat, then lay back down on it and youll land on your tricep. Thus giving you the flat and far more stable shooting body platform.
soz no photos all the ones i do have you cant see it
soz no photos all the ones i do have you cant see it
Eric,
firstly thank you for taking the time to reply. I have a further question about shoulder height.
You posted that you want to keep your shoulders level. Is this just a personal thing, or something you would recommend generally? I notice that several successful european shooters (Christian Planer, Valerian Sauveplane, and Artur Aivazian come to mind) chose a position where the left shoulder much lower than the right.
I can see that this pushes the left elbow further out, so their forearm is very steep. But it also strikes me that this would require very precise balancing. Would you say that the trade off between reach/forearm angle and balance is worth it for the less talented?
firstly thank you for taking the time to reply. I have a further question about shoulder height.
You posted that you want to keep your shoulders level. Is this just a personal thing, or something you would recommend generally? I notice that several successful european shooters (Christian Planer, Valerian Sauveplane, and Artur Aivazian come to mind) chose a position where the left shoulder much lower than the right.
I can see that this pushes the left elbow further out, so their forearm is very steep. But it also strikes me that this would require very precise balancing. Would you say that the trade off between reach/forearm angle and balance is worth it for the less talented?
Height of prone position
I agree with Eric on most of his thoughts about the height of the prone position.The only think I don't agree is that the vision in the low position suffers.I am shooting with a very low right shoulder in order to have my head up so I can look through the sights with the pupil of my eye not close to my eye brow.I totally agree with Eric that the height of the position is more the height of the shoulders than the angle of the arm.on the low position most of the weight is on the left arm ,and the placement of the right albow is not as critical as in the high shoulder position and the left elbow is as far as possible towards the target.I think that both Eric and myself shooting with a
Lot of presure in the shoulder and the cheek piece.
Guy Starik.
Lot of presure in the shoulder and the cheek piece.
Guy Starik.
Gy, thank you for joining this conversation and giving us your views.
After looking at photographs of you on internet I see a simularty between you and me for shoulder hight and angle of the triggerarm.
You mentioned : "and the placement of the right albow is not as critical as in the high shoulder position ".
In my view placing the right elbow thurder or closer to the body in a low prone position should result in a strong difference of the hight of the right shoulder and therfore in vertical spread; much more then in the high position.
Albert B, The Netherlands
After looking at photographs of you on internet I see a simularty between you and me for shoulder hight and angle of the triggerarm.
You mentioned : "and the placement of the right albow is not as critical as in the high shoulder position ".
In my view placing the right elbow thurder or closer to the body in a low prone position should result in a strong difference of the hight of the right shoulder and therfore in vertical spread; much more then in the high position.
Albert B, The Netherlands
As Eric said,most of the top shooters shoot with relatively high position.as I mentioned,
The only reason I shoot with low shoulders is to have my head up so I can look straight through the sight.any one should find the most stable position for himself.world class shooters are able to hold the aim inside the x ring for few seconds.if you have a scatt device,I will also look at the L which is the
. speed of movement.The best shooters can hold the L under 30. .
The only reason I shoot with low shoulders is to have my head up so I can look straight through the sight.any one should find the most stable position for himself.world class shooters are able to hold the aim inside the x ring for few seconds.if you have a scatt device,I will also look at the L which is the
. speed of movement.The best shooters can hold the L under 30. .
To Eric U and G Starik,
Your views are much appreciated, thank you both.
I would like some advice on buttplate setup, would people use the hook to locate the butt in the shoulder or use the upper section to locate into the shoulder, I've been using the upper section and to be honest the hook section in just sitting somewhere under my armpit doing nothing.
Should I use both? Use the hook to push up into my armpit and at the same time the upper section to engauge with my shoulder? As I mentioned I'm just looking for advice and options to try..
Thx.
D.
Your views are much appreciated, thank you both.
I would like some advice on buttplate setup, would people use the hook to locate the butt in the shoulder or use the upper section to locate into the shoulder, I've been using the upper section and to be honest the hook section in just sitting somewhere under my armpit doing nothing.
Should I use both? Use the hook to push up into my armpit and at the same time the upper section to engauge with my shoulder? As I mentioned I'm just looking for advice and options to try..
Thx.
D.
I use both actually. For each and every shot I push the butt of the rifle up with my right hand, locating it precisely with the hook. After placing my right hand on the pistol grip I then push down pretty hard with my cheek, seating the top of the butt plate against the top of my shoulder. After doing all this, the hook probably isn't touching much.
Eric U
Eric U