In recent months I’ve had conversations with several folks about staffing at tournaments. (primarily rifle but this could easily apply to other disciplines) I’d like to quantify the different opinions I’ve heard expressed, in the interest of exploring whether changes to the guidelines for putting on tournaments should be proposed.
I am polling two related questions, please look at the question for part I as well
All comments on this topic are appreciated.
Sincerely,
'Dude
Thoughts about volunteering and volunteers (Part II)
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Be aware, that in many (most?) states you have liability protection as an individual volunteer, which disappears when you taken any remuneration.
Also, private organizations which make payments for services rendered may be deemed (by OSHA) to have "employees", thus opening your range to federal inspection.
Also, private organizations which make payments for services rendered may be deemed (by OSHA) to have "employees", thus opening your range to federal inspection.
Last edited by Pat McCoy on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Pat,
These are two interesting points. Now does the line for both remuneration and being an employee start as soon as any payment is made or only when it gets to the point where the person has come out ahead? Clearly, if I tell someone I will pay them $X.xx per hour to do something they are an employee and it is a whole different set of rules but where is that line set?
If I give each volunteer a flat $10 for gas and lunch, in my area financially they are probably still "in the hole" just not as bad. Under the legal considerations you are thinking about does this still qualify as remuneration or being an employee?
Thanks,
'Dude
These are two interesting points. Now does the line for both remuneration and being an employee start as soon as any payment is made or only when it gets to the point where the person has come out ahead? Clearly, if I tell someone I will pay them $X.xx per hour to do something they are an employee and it is a whole different set of rules but where is that line set?
If I give each volunteer a flat $10 for gas and lunch, in my area financially they are probably still "in the hole" just not as bad. Under the legal considerations you are thinking about does this still qualify as remuneration or being an employee?
Thanks,
'Dude
I think it will depend on state laws, and their interpretation. In Wyoming it begins immediately. We had to stop giving the club secretary/treasurer free dues (even thought they always wound up with more time involved than the dues).
I haven't yet checked Montana, but a club here was shut down by OSHA, whose only basis for authority was the "employee" status.
I haven't yet checked Montana, but a club here was shut down by OSHA, whose only basis for authority was the "employee" status.
I think that the answer to this question depends on the level of the tournament and the amount of the expenses of the volunteers. For local matches with local volunteers I would not expect that volunteers be compensated. For state and regional matches that use some volunteers from out of the area it would be reasonable to compensate for travel and housing (however, I have worked many matches where I don't expect these mostly because that is just the way it has always been done). For national level tournaments, particularly those with some staff working as part of their normal employment, I think that payment of expenses of volunteers is completely reasonable and pretty much expected.
I agree with PaulB.
I run local matches. Getting started was all out of my pocket. Attendance recently is good enough that I am not paying out of pocket for targets and such any more.
I would help at local matches without expectation. Everybody is a volunteer and not being compensated.
But I would not really consider going to the national matches for a week or two, working has hard as those folks do, without my room & meals being covered.
I run local matches. Getting started was all out of my pocket. Attendance recently is good enough that I am not paying out of pocket for targets and such any more.
I would help at local matches without expectation. Everybody is a volunteer and not being compensated.
But I would not really consider going to the national matches for a week or two, working has hard as those folks do, without my room & meals being covered.
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BenEnglishTX
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There's no easy answer.
Sorry to jump in; I know you asked Pat. However, I've had a few decades experience with this sort of thing and can, perhaps, contribute something. (Probably just to your confusion, but contribute, nonetheless.)justadude wrote:Under...legal considerations...does this...qualify as remuneration or being an employee?
In the United States, each agency that enforces some sort of labor law or has any need to decide who is and isn't an employee carries out their legal mandate under separate sections of applicable federal statutes.
In other words, the definition of the word "employee" varies depending on the context. The Internal Revenue Service has a definition of "employee". The Department of Labor has one. OSHA has one. And they are all slightly different.
States are usually a bit clearer, often (though not always) referring to a common pool of definitions when defining words. I can pretty much guarantee, though, that any state definition of "employee" is unlikely to be a word-for-word match to any federal definition.
In sum: If any part of your life depends on knowing whether the people around you are actually, legally your "employees", you need to speak to a competent lawyer and rely on their advice. Questions exactly like these are what keep labor lawyers employed and getting good advice is what keeps organizations of all types in operation.
Jumping in is just fine. That is what this forum is for and also why I posed the question in the first place. Now, I am hardly a lawyer, and it would seem to me to be an innocent act to cover a volunteer's transportation and meals (either locally or nationally) but clearly in some places this can cause a problem. I find this very interesting. Please comment away.
'Dude
'Dude
It may well be different here but volunteers often get some expenses, although that depends on the event etc. I generally 'volunteer' free but not if I'm going to be a lot out of pocket. So my local comps etc I will help run and get a free lunch out of it - like a sandwich and a drink. If I'm travelling further then add in petrol costs. When I've run courses and I've had to stay away from home then those accomodation expenses are all added in as well. That would in no way make me an employee of anyone or make me liable for tax on those 'earnings'. When you start making some degree of profit then it gets more complicated.
As I said, that's for the UK...
Rob.
As I said, that's for the UK...
Rob.
sbrmike wrote:I have been a youth leader for over 20 years, well over 20 years.
Volunteering is volunteering. What a concept. Paid workers are not volunteers. Volunteers who need a tax receipt are not volunteers either.
Being unpaid doesn't mean you should be left out of pocket for your efforts. It shouldn't cost you anything other than time to volunteer.In general terms, volunteering is the practice of people working on behalf of others or a particular cause without payment for their time and services.
There are lots of clubs that could use a coach, but I'll be beggered if my salary will stretch to driving all over the country. If they all chip in a couple of quid to my fuel bill however, then I can go. Not that I personally do any volunteering on that geographical scale, but in principle if I was a magic coach and in high demand.
I don't end up any better off than when I started, apart from a warm cheery glow inside.
Also, tax receipts are great. If it's possible to reclaim the tax on your fuel or some other expense, then that means your expenses are lower, so the club's contribution should be lower, which leaves money for other things because the tax man is subsidising the activity, and that's always a good thing.
Well, not in America because your taxman is skint and owes trillions to China, so they can't really afford to be altruistic, but that's a separate discussion. In principle, being able to claim back tax on charitable activities and reduce the cost to the organisation is a great thing.
The UK's a bit weird about these things. You can still be a volunteer and get reasonable expenses. On the other hand, strictly speaking, if old Joe mows your range all year long and the members give him a bottle of whisky at the summer barbeque by way of appreciation, then that's payment, and strictly old Joe needs to declare that to the tax man and is covered under Health and Safety at Work (UK's answer to OSHA). Fun times. In the end, it's all a fudge and goes on what's morally right and reasonable (or whatever will screw the tax man out of the most money).
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GCSInc
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Work Hours
If your club has required "Work Hours" then OSHA deems the volinteers to be employes.
This past weekend we had a match and everyone of us that worked it were volunteers and that included some of the kids from several teams who acted as runners and such. We were offered lunch by the match director and I think that was enough compensation for me. I do not ask for gas money but I do appreciate the lunch and the coffee that is usually provided at the match.
If compensation is going to be given to the volunteers for their work at the match should we include the parent volunteers who spend their time each week at practices and hauling the kids to matches? A lot of these parent volunteers are at the matches working where needed. I met several this weekend who were there helping out their coach and helping the kids get ready etc. Many asked if there was something they could do during that relay. Thoughts on this anyone?
I guess I would say for me at least feed me lunch since I probably will not be leaving the line other for a quick run to the bathroom. As for national matches well I have been put up at OTC when I worked matches there. I was happy with the room and the meals I was given there. It was enough for me. The best compensation I get is when a shooter who I haven't seen in a while comes by to visit and thank me for all the hard work I put in for the match. That means a lot to me more than they know.
Anyway that is my two cents worth.
Sid.
If compensation is going to be given to the volunteers for their work at the match should we include the parent volunteers who spend their time each week at practices and hauling the kids to matches? A lot of these parent volunteers are at the matches working where needed. I met several this weekend who were there helping out their coach and helping the kids get ready etc. Many asked if there was something they could do during that relay. Thoughts on this anyone?
I guess I would say for me at least feed me lunch since I probably will not be leaving the line other for a quick run to the bathroom. As for national matches well I have been put up at OTC when I worked matches there. I was happy with the room and the meals I was given there. It was enough for me. The best compensation I get is when a shooter who I haven't seen in a while comes by to visit and thank me for all the hard work I put in for the match. That means a lot to me more than they know.
Anyway that is my two cents worth.
Sid.