OK I am still A new shooter and recently i have been trying to adjust to a more comfortable position. well i could use some help on how to fix this issue of mine.
the rifle is an Anschuts 1600 in an older 1807 stock that uses shims for adjustments
I have the Cheek rest as High as it can go currently and have tried lowering it with no results.
The rear sight is a Swiss made "Elite" I nice Solid 20 click sight
The Front sight is a Tompkins M22
Both are on sight risers about 3/8" tall
I did figure out the cause of the problem is when in position it seems i tilt my neck back to align my sight picture.
So... Suggestions on where it begin?
If you need more details just ask and i will supple what i can.
Thanks in Advance.
Cameron K
Neck Pains Help
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
Ok this an immediate fault you're going to need to change. I'm sure you're acquainted with the saying the rifle should fit to you, NOT you fit to the rifle.
Can you send some pics of you laying in prone position so i can get a better understanding of what your position is like.
As an assumption for now, Id say bring out your sling connection point further out, lower your body position. If you're not already on your rifle hand, rest the arm on the tricep not the elbow. Lastly start experimenting with adjusting the butt plate so that you're not too close to the sight. As a general rule keep the cheek plate low and allow your cheek to rest naturally on it, dont force down on the rifle with lots of head pressure. Find a comfortable position and obviously just raise if you're eye is too low on the sight pic.
Hope that helps, but yeah if you show some pics we might get a better idea
Can you send some pics of you laying in prone position so i can get a better understanding of what your position is like.
As an assumption for now, Id say bring out your sling connection point further out, lower your body position. If you're not already on your rifle hand, rest the arm on the tricep not the elbow. Lastly start experimenting with adjusting the butt plate so that you're not too close to the sight. As a general rule keep the cheek plate low and allow your cheek to rest naturally on it, dont force down on the rifle with lots of head pressure. Find a comfortable position and obviously just raise if you're eye is too low on the sight pic.
Hope that helps, but yeah if you show some pics we might get a better idea
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
FWB2700 Lover wrote:Ok this an immediate fault you're going to need to change. I'm sure you're acquainted with the saying the rifle should fit to you, NOT you fit to the rifle.
Yes and this is what i am trying to accomplish
Will do i will try and get some tomorrow wile at the range.FWB2700 Lover wrote:Can you send some pics of you laying in prone position so i can get a better understanding of what your position is like.
it never struck to me to adjust the sling, and I am sure you know what your talking about but i would like to ask a question on this.FWB2700 Lover wrote:As an assumption for now, Id say bring out your sling connection point further out, lower your body position. If you're not already on your rifle hand, rest the arm on the tricep not the elbow. Lastly start experimenting with adjusting the butt plate so that you're not too close to the sight. As a general rule keep the cheek plate low and allow your cheek to rest naturally on it, dont force down on the rifle with lots of head pressure. Find a comfortable position and obviously just raise if you're eye is too low on the sight pic.
Hope that helps, but yeah if you show some pics we might get a better idea
wouldn't moving the sling forward lower the front of the rifle? thus making my sight alignment harder? another way to describe why i have been tilting my head/neck back is because the rear sight appears higher than the front sight.
thanks for the input this gives me something to work with.
No worries mate,
Well simply put you need to start experimenting with sling length and position. Most people I know and indeed I used to do it too, was have the connection point quite close to me.
This meant my body was raised and that in itself is a whole other world of worries :P though some do like shooting in a high position.
Nevertheless back on topic, i recommend you find a low position, the first day I tried it my scores and groups significantly improved and stability was amazing. Anyway bring your connection point out along with the length of your sling. so that your arm goes out further and you go lower. This will not lower the rifle, as your hand will be placed further towards the end of the rifle, meaning less of it is wavering about.
Ill try and make a video, but a method I have used and along with a friend has helped me find my perfect position rather easily.
Sorry if im going on a long rant here, but another thing i do with my coach is i will do a 10 shot group. HOWEVER i stand up after each shot walk around a bit then get back down do shot and repeat. Ive done this many many times, its slow but it taught me to instantly recognise and find my perfect natural position.
To finish off if you can get those pics that would be great, and ill see what else i can help you with. And if i do get round to making a video of my (special) way of getting into position and instantly finding my natural one. That should help you enormously as you'll learn by yourself waht you need to do to fix your position.
best of luck mate have a good day
Well simply put you need to start experimenting with sling length and position. Most people I know and indeed I used to do it too, was have the connection point quite close to me.
This meant my body was raised and that in itself is a whole other world of worries :P though some do like shooting in a high position.
Nevertheless back on topic, i recommend you find a low position, the first day I tried it my scores and groups significantly improved and stability was amazing. Anyway bring your connection point out along with the length of your sling. so that your arm goes out further and you go lower. This will not lower the rifle, as your hand will be placed further towards the end of the rifle, meaning less of it is wavering about.
Ill try and make a video, but a method I have used and along with a friend has helped me find my perfect position rather easily.
Sorry if im going on a long rant here, but another thing i do with my coach is i will do a 10 shot group. HOWEVER i stand up after each shot walk around a bit then get back down do shot and repeat. Ive done this many many times, its slow but it taught me to instantly recognise and find my perfect natural position.
To finish off if you can get those pics that would be great, and ill see what else i can help you with. And if i do get round to making a video of my (special) way of getting into position and instantly finding my natural one. That should help you enormously as you'll learn by yourself waht you need to do to fix your position.
best of luck mate have a good day
Is yr peep sight to eye distance ok?
Whats yr exact issue; too far away or close too, or too high/low?
In last case, what height are the sights? Maybe the height needs to be altered. Risers more or less.
Is the hole in yr peep sight the correct diameter?
Buttpad set correctly?
Just thinking out loud..
What stance are you shooting in anyway? Kneeling or prone?
Whats yr exact issue; too far away or close too, or too high/low?
In last case, what height are the sights? Maybe the height needs to be altered. Risers more or less.
Is the hole in yr peep sight the correct diameter?
Buttpad set correctly?
Just thinking out loud..
What stance are you shooting in anyway? Kneeling or prone?
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
yes and I have tried many other settings I seem to come back to the same one.yana wrote:Is yr peep sight to eye distance ok?
this is part of the issue.yana wrote: Whats yr exact issue; too far away or close too, or too high/low?
The rear sight seems to high, when aligning the front sight, that's why I have been tilting my head back .
I have Maby a 3/8 in riser on sounds like Maby I can remove this?yana wrote: In last case, what height are the sights? Maybe the height needs to be altered. Risers more or less.
Is the hole in yr peep sight the correct diameter?
yana wrote: Buttpad set correctly?
Just thinking out loud..
I think so, for the record this but plate does not have a hook, it is adjustable in LOP and vertical only.
I thought I mentioned prone but it appears I made changes to my post and left that out, my bad, so yes in the prone positionyana wrote: What stance are you shooting in anyway? Kneeling or prone?
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
Hmm seem's i double posted, ill fix that,
anyways i couldn't get anyone to take pictures wile i was practicing today so i did the next best thing i set up my tri pod and made a video.
anyways let me know where i should start making changes.
also today i lowered my front sight riser and resighted in to align the sights back up and i also moved the sling around forward and backward and didnt notice any changes.
http://s234.photobucket.com/albums/ee24 ... sition.mp4
lucky today wasnt as windy as usual
anyways i couldn't get anyone to take pictures wile i was practicing today so i did the next best thing i set up my tri pod and made a video.
anyways let me know where i should start making changes.
also today i lowered my front sight riser and resighted in to align the sights back up and i also moved the sling around forward and backward and didnt notice any changes.
http://s234.photobucket.com/albums/ee24 ... sition.mp4
lucky today wasnt as windy as usual
Excellent Im glad you made that video, allows me to see quite a few things that could result in this, ill tell you this by numbers...
1. When you got into position, i noticed something that is going to greatly affect how you learn to find your position. Now ill admit many people lay down then put their rifle on their hand, what i will get you to do. Hopefully I can make this easy to understand by text.
First grab your rifle, while on your mate HOWEVER whilst you are kneeling so be upright with your knees on the mat. Put your hand into the sling and place it AGAINST the connection point!!! Your hand is halfway to the connection. I recently fixed someone doing that and it fixed him immediately as he had a similar problem.
Now before you actually lay down with your whole body, point your left elbow and that will be the first thing you place on the mat. bring your elbow closer to the front of the mat and IN FRONT of your body. Then lay down on that elbow so your tricep lays on the mat. (hopefully this makes sense) Now immediately put the rifle in your shoulder.
From here on adjust your legs not your arms obviously, to get your natural point of aim. Give it a try when you can, even at home if you have your equipment with you.
Ill summarise this all.
1. Kneel on mat
2. Put left hand into sling and rifle AGAINST connection point NOT away from it.
3. Place your left elbow near front of mat and IN FRONT of your body
4. Lay back down on it, so your tricep lays on the mat.
5. Get rifle into shoulder
6. adjust position with legs
Ill try and get a video of that as im at the range tomorrow night.
2. The fact your hand was halfway to the connection poitn looked as if the rifle was sitting weirdly in terms of how you would be looking down it.
The connection point (where your sling ends) is designed to be where your hand ends, if you're not up against that then you're going to face issues such as wobble, general shakiness and a general lack of complete rifle control.
The reason you didnt notice change when you adjusted your sling, was because your hand wasnt changing!
1. When you got into position, i noticed something that is going to greatly affect how you learn to find your position. Now ill admit many people lay down then put their rifle on their hand, what i will get you to do. Hopefully I can make this easy to understand by text.
First grab your rifle, while on your mate HOWEVER whilst you are kneeling so be upright with your knees on the mat. Put your hand into the sling and place it AGAINST the connection point!!! Your hand is halfway to the connection. I recently fixed someone doing that and it fixed him immediately as he had a similar problem.
Now before you actually lay down with your whole body, point your left elbow and that will be the first thing you place on the mat. bring your elbow closer to the front of the mat and IN FRONT of your body. Then lay down on that elbow so your tricep lays on the mat. (hopefully this makes sense) Now immediately put the rifle in your shoulder.
From here on adjust your legs not your arms obviously, to get your natural point of aim. Give it a try when you can, even at home if you have your equipment with you.
Ill summarise this all.
1. Kneel on mat
2. Put left hand into sling and rifle AGAINST connection point NOT away from it.
3. Place your left elbow near front of mat and IN FRONT of your body
4. Lay back down on it, so your tricep lays on the mat.
5. Get rifle into shoulder
6. adjust position with legs
Ill try and get a video of that as im at the range tomorrow night.
2. The fact your hand was halfway to the connection poitn looked as if the rifle was sitting weirdly in terms of how you would be looking down it.
The connection point (where your sling ends) is designed to be where your hand ends, if you're not up against that then you're going to face issues such as wobble, general shakiness and a general lack of complete rifle control.
The reason you didnt notice change when you adjusted your sling, was because your hand wasnt changing!
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
Drifter,
I'd also noticed a big gap between your hand and the sling swivel, using a separate handstop now makes sense. This isn't too common as it makes adjustments more complicated, but if it works for you...
I did notice that the rearsight is quite a long way back. If this is too far back, it could be causing your neck pains, as you contort your self to aim. So before trying raiser blocks, I'd suggest moving the rearisght forwards.
Tim
I'd also noticed a big gap between your hand and the sling swivel, using a separate handstop now makes sense. This isn't too common as it makes adjustments more complicated, but if it works for you...
I did notice that the rearsight is quite a long way back. If this is too far back, it could be causing your neck pains, as you contort your self to aim. So before trying raiser blocks, I'd suggest moving the rearisght forwards.
Tim
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
Ha ha, well Maby the hand stop isn't working I would like to think it helps but perhaps I should try moving it closer to the sling connection.
Question if I were to just start over setting up my rifle what would be a generic starting point? Or would I waste my time... Better off just trying to solve this problem?
Question if I were to just start over setting up my rifle what would be a generic starting point? Or would I waste my time... Better off just trying to solve this problem?
-
Martin Catley
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:19 am
- Location: New Zealand
- Contact:
Sore neck?
Hi there you look very cramped up resulting in a propped up neck position.
Would suggest sight further forward to start with and maybe a longer Butt.
As said before your left arm needs a lot of work it appears to cramp you up.
In my opinion your left elbow needs to be much further forward and under the sling, reach forward when placing this, you have a steep angle on the upper arm and much less on the forearm. Reach out with left arm to take the pressure off the point of the elbow and more onto the back of it as said earlier.
I cannot see the Sling properly but it needs to pull from the centre of the arm or slightly to the outside.
Get down without the sling and find a comfortable position and put the Handstop there to start with.
Would suggest sight further forward to start with and maybe a longer Butt.
As said before your left arm needs a lot of work it appears to cramp you up.
In my opinion your left elbow needs to be much further forward and under the sling, reach forward when placing this, you have a steep angle on the upper arm and much less on the forearm. Reach out with left arm to take the pressure off the point of the elbow and more onto the back of it as said earlier.
I cannot see the Sling properly but it needs to pull from the centre of the arm or slightly to the outside.
Get down without the sling and find a comfortable position and put the Handstop there to start with.
-
Telecomtodd
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:15 pm
- Location: Saint Charles, MO
Oh ok wasnt able to see the handstop in the video.
Now others have noticed this too, but i will say it will make adjusting a bit more complicated as you're trying to find a medium between comfort and correct positioning. Give it a try without the hand stop, try having your hand resting against the connection point, if your glove is good enough then your hand will be fine.
The handstop is also stopping you from bringing your hand closer to the front of the rifle and thus keeping your rifle high. As noticed by Tim S your rear sight comes a heck of a long way back and your obviously forcing your neck backwards to accomodate the lengthy eye piece. Shorten it or take it off. Im using a FWB 2700 and it doesnt hae an eye piece only a slightly tilted cup which screws in place.
This is a bit different to your situation and will definitely apply later on in your shooting, but do you have a blinder? I would recommend if you dont, just get a plastic milk carton and cut out a strip and put a hole in one end of it. Place it onto the rear sight and let the rest of it hang out the left of the rifle. This will allow you to shoot with both eyes open, casing less stress on the face as you squint to shut out the left eye. Its weird at first, but when your accustomed to it, youll find it very comfortable, now I only ever shoot with both eyes open.
Like i said tonight I might be able to get a pic/video of my position to help you with.
Now others have noticed this too, but i will say it will make adjusting a bit more complicated as you're trying to find a medium between comfort and correct positioning. Give it a try without the hand stop, try having your hand resting against the connection point, if your glove is good enough then your hand will be fine.
The handstop is also stopping you from bringing your hand closer to the front of the rifle and thus keeping your rifle high. As noticed by Tim S your rear sight comes a heck of a long way back and your obviously forcing your neck backwards to accomodate the lengthy eye piece. Shorten it or take it off. Im using a FWB 2700 and it doesnt hae an eye piece only a slightly tilted cup which screws in place.
This is a bit different to your situation and will definitely apply later on in your shooting, but do you have a blinder? I would recommend if you dont, just get a plastic milk carton and cut out a strip and put a hole in one end of it. Place it onto the rear sight and let the rest of it hang out the left of the rifle. This will allow you to shoot with both eyes open, casing less stress on the face as you squint to shut out the left eye. Its weird at first, but when your accustomed to it, youll find it very comfortable, now I only ever shoot with both eyes open.
Like i said tonight I might be able to get a pic/video of my position to help you with.
-
Martin Catley
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:19 am
- Location: New Zealand
- Contact:
Hi drifter a couple ,more comments then I will leave you in peace.
Most prone shooters I know would turn your Butt plate up side down for prone and have it quite a bit higher.It must be sitting almost under your shoulder rather than firmly contacting it. I still think it could be a little longer for prone as you do not apear to be exactly short.
Yes get rid of the peep extension that will help with your neck problem as well as moving it forward, you can have quite a long eye relief before having problems.
Do you shoot in a Club where you can watch other shooters otherwise have a look at the ISSF replays or find some footage from your Camp Perry.
Martin
Most prone shooters I know would turn your Butt plate up side down for prone and have it quite a bit higher.It must be sitting almost under your shoulder rather than firmly contacting it. I still think it could be a little longer for prone as you do not apear to be exactly short.
Yes get rid of the peep extension that will help with your neck problem as well as moving it forward, you can have quite a long eye relief before having problems.
Do you shoot in a Club where you can watch other shooters otherwise have a look at the ISSF replays or find some footage from your Camp Perry.
Martin
As Tim noted, your rear sight is probably way too far back and you would have to have your neck in a very unnatural position to see through it. When I shot Anschutz, I had the forward part of the sight cut off so that only one clamp held it on the dovetail. That way it didn't cover the loading ramp so much and still had more than enough clamping power to hold it securely on the action. I did that with your style of sight and even the newer Anschutz 7020 sight, which I still use.
Eric U
Eric U
-
Thedrifter
- Posts: 281
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
ok i took it out along with the eye cupFWB2700 Lover wrote:...Give it a try without the hand stop, ...
wow and for a cheap guy like me this is going to happen.FWB2700 Lover wrote: ...get a plastic milk carton and cut out a strip and put a hole in one end of it. ...
Thanks,
Hmm good food for thought i never was happy with my buttplate position i will try fliping it next go around.Martin Catley wrote:Most prone shooters I know would turn your Butt plate up side down ......I still think it could be a little longer for prone as you do not apear to be exactly short.
Side note I am 5'10" how much of an extension would you recommend, or would arm length be more relevant? im also glad i didn't have it cut mac tilton sugested that to me after i purchased the rifle sights and other stuffs from him, he never watched me in position either though.
Right now im working on my position before i start driving to the club "only one and its in LA" there is a local Dewars match that i have been going to and i do very well infact last weekend i shot 196 198 on the A23 & A25 and for only 7-8 months of shooting i feel like im doing very well. if i can correct my neck pain i feel that i can do much better having a more consistant cheek position and not rushing the shots because it hurts. Anyways i will watch some videos and take notes, and refer back to the books i own.Martin Catley wrote:Do you shoot in a Club where you can watch other shooters otherwise have a look at the ISSF replays or find some footage from your Camp Perry.
Martin
Side Note there is an Army Marksmen Unit seminar comming up at my club that i plan to attend the dates are not confirmed yet but its on my calander.
Thanks,
Thanks I will look into this the cutting will wait till im certin though.Eric U wrote:When I shot Anschutz, I had the forward part of the sight cut off so that only one clamp held it on the dovetail. That way it didn't cover the loading ramp so much and still had more than enough clamping power to hold it securely on the action.
Eric U
Ok you guys are great, im still working this issue and i have alot to try at this point, im gitting so many ideas and good information its hard to keep up, as of right now these are the adjustments i have made:
1. I moved the rear sight forward and plan to move more.
2. Removed the hand stop
3. played with sling adjustment
4. removed 1 shim from the cheak rest.
5. adjusted cheak rest left/right
I have also tried getting into a lower position and it just is not comfortable for me it seems more natural the higher i am. and i think i understand what was mentioned about being on my tricepe at this point i will still go back and forth between higher and lower.
I appreciate what you guys are doing for me this must be difficult to correct online, i will put together some more videos soon at where i am now and see if this helps.
Aha yeah as i mentioned before this will be hard to convey over the internet.
I agree, the higher you sit the more natural you feel, but over time when you truly learn how you react with the rifle. itll sound corny but over time at one point youll feel like you and the rifle are one and youll understand how it reacts in accordance to you.
Nevertheless going lower is the better option in the long run and eventually when you do feel comfortabl ennough with your rifle youll see what I mean.
Finding a low position is quite hard, i never understood how to do it until someone properly showed me. So yes i implore you to try the tricep, as i aforementioned that means youll be shooting off a flat stable platform opposed to resting on your elbow which will naturally be unsettled.
Should be able to get that video soon at the club house, and hopefully ill be a little less confusing.
I agree, the higher you sit the more natural you feel, but over time when you truly learn how you react with the rifle. itll sound corny but over time at one point youll feel like you and the rifle are one and youll understand how it reacts in accordance to you.
Nevertheless going lower is the better option in the long run and eventually when you do feel comfortabl ennough with your rifle youll see what I mean.
Finding a low position is quite hard, i never understood how to do it until someone properly showed me. So yes i implore you to try the tricep, as i aforementioned that means youll be shooting off a flat stable platform opposed to resting on your elbow which will naturally be unsettled.
Should be able to get that video soon at the club house, and hopefully ill be a little less confusing.