Ol Gunny Brian Zin calls BS...

[Rover]

...BS, just like Natural Point of Aim with a pistol is BS.

http://www.brianzins.com/category/fundamentals/

[jackh]

Look at NPA as Natural Position of (sight) Alignment.

[Gerard]

I'm not sure about his stance on NPA but will give it some time, trying not to focus so much on that element. Reading his other articles there are some excellent tips, like using trigger pressure as part of firming up the grip as the shot goes. Tried that last night and saw some very tight groups, including the first string of 5 x 10 in a row I've shot in a while. Thanks for the link.

[Gwhite]

I took Zins's clinic several years ago. I'm not sure I totally agree with him about natural point of aim (NPA) being BS, but here (as best I can recall) is his rationale:

Somebody discovered that depending on how you align the axis of your stance/feet to your torso & arm, the stability of your hold changes. If it's too far one way, your arm will tend to wobble up & down. If it's too far the other way, it tends to swing side to side. I'd have to unearth my notes to be sure which way is which, but somewhere in the middle is a position where your wobble is at a minimum. He used a laser pointer to show the difference. He claims it is more important to align your body to that optimum configuration than it is to settle into the most relaxed position that is the usual basis for NPA.

You still want to take that position & align it to the target, so that you are at the most stable configuration when pointed at the bullseye. Let's call that the Unnatural Point of Aim (UPA). I suspect that the difference between NPA & UPA for most people is quite small. Zins, and the Marines he coached, shoot very well with this methodology, so I'm not about to disagree with him. If I haven't quite got this right, my apologies to Mr. Zins.

In the clinic, I tried the laser pointer exercise, but didn't see a dramatic difference, even at fairly extreme deviations from my NPA position. One problem was that the weight & grip geometry for the laser pointer are very different from a pistol. I was wobbling enough trying to hold the pointer level & activate the push button that I think my results were pretty meaningless. I've got a couple cheapo laser pointers, and have been meaning to build one into a weighted pistol shaped device with a trigger to switch on the laser. I'm very interested in doing a more careful study to see just how much difference it makes in stability, and how different the most stable position is from the usual NPA.

[Gerard]

Why not just tape or clamp a laser pointer (or cheapo laser sighting accessory for pistol, as these are abundantly available these days) onto your own pistol and give it a try? Seems unnecessary to have to make a whole device when your own grip and pistol weight are likely to deliver a more accurate assessment of wobble with the laser.

[Gwhite]

Also do-able, but the laser pointers I have would still require some sort of widget to clamp the switches on. They have relatively small stiff push-buttons. My plan was to try to make this as universal as possible. If it actually proves as useful as Zins claims, I would want to use it for coaching, not just for me. If it doesn't require a firearm to use, it makes it much easier to transport or bring out in a classroom, for example.

However, I also like the idea of a version that could be attached to the shooters pistol. The trick is coming up with a fairly universal mount. In this day & age, not even a magnetic mount can be relied on. Too much plastic & aluminum out there...

[Gerard]

For the switch, if it's a little bump type just sticking out of the laser housing tube, you could find/make a plastic tube which is a slightly slack fit over the tube which could be slid forward or backward onto the button to lock it on. The spring in the button should be enough force to keep such a plastic tube in place. Bit primitive, but it should work for keeping the laser on for 30 seconds or whatever at a time.

As for a universal mount... that's hard, as you say there are no real universals among pistols. But alignment need not be perfectly in tune with the pistol's sights as what one is looking for is the laser's actions on target, not perfect sight alignment. So some kind of soft plastic clip? A firm fit on the tube by means of a slightly under-sized hole on that side of the clamp, then perhaps a small zip tie through a hole to mount to a given pistol barrel? Zip ties are cheap enough. A V-cut into the pistol side of such a small plastic block would make for a solid interface against either round barrels or squared barrel housings such as on the Steyr models. A small zip tie going through a hole between this V and the laser mounting hole would secure it, to be either cut away after the session, or using a re-usable zip tie if one small enough can be found.

[Freepistol]

Why not just use a Scatt, Rika, or Noptel?

[jackh]

Find your strongest shooting arm-shoulder angle by finding your strongest arm-shoulder angle lifting a significant weight (careful of the elbow). Somewhere close to that should be your (cough, cough) NPA

[Gwhite]

Why not just use a Scatt, Rika, or Noptel?

You certainly could, but you should be able to put together the laser pointer setup for < $20. Last I checked, the trainers are a little more expensive....

[BenEnglishTX]

...you should be able to put together the laser pointer setup for < $20.

Would something like this suit your purposes?

http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pistol- ... B000QSVK1E

[Gwhite]

Would something like this suit your purposes?

http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Pistol- ... B000QSVK1E

Yes, that looks promising. The reviews are a bit mixed, but the worst one is ancient & it sounds like the guy was clueless. The mount looks entirely too rickety to hold up well as a sight, but for this effort, it could be perfect.

[BenEnglishTX]

Yes, that looks promising. The reviews are a bit mixed, but the worst one is ancient & it sounds like the guy was clueless. The mount looks entirely too rickety to hold up well as a sight, but for this effort, it could be perfect.

I don't know how I screwed up that link but it doesn't go to the page I intended. The problem was how to get a universal mount when, to quote Gerard paraphrasing you, "...there are no real universals among pistols...".

I figured that nearly all pistols have a trigger guard and was trying to point you toward a guard-mounted laser.

Let's try another link: http://www.airsoftmegastore.com/NcStar_ ... s-apls.htm

At $17, that's a little pricey. I've seen that same laser on Amazon for $12 but can't find it again this morning.

And just to make sure, here's a picture to show you what I'm talking about.

[Gerard]

The earlier link worked for me, showed that picture on Amazon. But such a clamp would not work with a Baikal 46m, as there is no forward trigger guard on this model, just a diagonal partial guard. The cocking lever covers the front area of trigger, and this is at a very strong diagonal which would likewise not provide a proper anchor for such a clamp. I've seen quite a few 10metre air pistol models which do not have a guard such as would work with this sort of clamp. Some would, but that kind of trigger guard is more likely to be found on that kind of pistol; perhaps most of the CO2 blow-back types, imitations of semi-auto firearms and the like. The wide range of designs seen among Olympic type APs was why I was suggesting a V type interface in parallel with the barrel, which would allow for a firm attachment to square or round barrels/shrouds, or even to an air cylinder if need be.

[BenEnglishTX]

...I was suggesting a V type interface in parallel with the barrel, which would allow for a firm attachment to square or round barrels/shrouds, or even to an air cylinder if need be.

So, something more like this?

[Gerard]

That sort of clamp would work on many pistols, but many others don't have room between cylinder and barrel or their barrel shrouds are too large, or both, for such a clamp to fit. I can't see how that would work on an LP10 for example, one of the most popular APs, as there's no space around the square-ish aluminum shroud for the clamp/bolts between it and the cylinder. Likewise the previous clamp, as that pistol's trigger guard is strongly sloped back which would point the laser on the ground somewhere just in front of the shooter. My suggestion was for something more like this, made of an easily machined plastic such as Delrin. Please forgive my profoundly weak graphics skills... The small holes are for zip ties (zap straps, or whatever they're called in your locale) to hold the block against whatever shape of barrel or housing.

[FredB]

How about this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vector-Optics-S ... 3694290643

The advantage here is that it could be easily bolted to any kind of bracket you might want to use. In addition, it has an on-off switch that does not need to be held down.

FredB

[waxman]

Why not a laser boresighter?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bushnell-740100 ... 4cfa717a93

[tuj]

What I use is a laser boresighter, then I have a B2 target with the X ring cut out and replaced with a photoeye. There is a circuit that makes a tone when the laser hits the photo eye. Very good trainer for learning to hold onto the center of the target.

And way cheaper than a Rika/Scatt.

[Gerard]

Any chance you could post a parts list and diagram of that sensor setup? I'd be keen to use such a thing, especially for training sessions at home when the pop-gun noise it too disturbing for other folks.