I have a question regarding the ammunition used in the ISSF Center Fire match.
While .38 special is legal to use, most people opt for the .32 S&W Long for less recoil. However, some Russian shooters (and perhaps others in the former Soviet block) use a 7.62 mm round. I believe the TOZ 49 was chambered in this, and also saw a Russian semi-auto pistol in this caliber on the internet, but can't find it now. Perhaps it has been discontinued
What exactly is this caliber? I am assuming that it is not the 7.62 x 25 Tokarev round. Is it the 7.62 x 38R Nagant?
At gun shows here, it is easy to find the .32 S&W Long (but not as a wadcutter) and you can even find Tokarev and Nagant ammo, but if this is something different, I have never seen it.
Maybe some contributors to this board have come across it, or competed against Russian shooters. Is this a rimless bottleneck round? Do the Russians use a wadcutter bullet? If so, the neck must be fairly long. How does it stack up to the .32 as far as ease of reloading and accuracy?
Thanks.
7.62 mm versus .32 S&W Long
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Toz 36 & 49
The two russian revolvers are the Toz 36 (7.62 nagant long) and Toz 49 (7.62 nagant short), both are reloaded with .32 hollow base wadcutters.
The long case can be deep seated to reduce case capacity (the short to a lesser extent).
Some of these revolvers have been modified (sleeved the cylinder) to take .32 sw long, because the casees are now hard to get.
They shoot well, but are now hard to find a good example.
The auto I know nothing about.
The long case can be deep seated to reduce case capacity (the short to a lesser extent).
Some of these revolvers have been modified (sleeved the cylinder) to take .32 sw long, because the casees are now hard to get.
They shoot well, but are now hard to find a good example.
The auto I know nothing about.
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JamesH
7.62 Nagant
There are indeed two Russian 7.62mm cartridges.
From Yur'yev's book
Toz 36 = 7.62x38.7mm, the bullet is seated deep in the case and the front portion beyond the bullet has a sharper taper.
Toz 49 = 7.62 x26.2 with a simple taper and the bullet seated flush with the top of the case. This is not the same as 7.62x25 Tokarev.
I believe these are both ~600fps.
There is reputed to be an autoloader for the shorter cartridge.
The short cartridge seems straighforward to load providing you have the right dies, ie a custom resizing die - mine is from Simplex. As it is a steel die case lube is required.
Cases are available from Bertram Bullet co.
I did find a 0.310 bullet was required or the cartridge jammed in the tapered chamber. Some people seem to get on OK with ~0.311-0.312.
I have not tried loading the long cartridge.
Good ones seem to be few and far between, I was very lucky to get hold of an excellent example thanks to the generous help of Alex Taransky.
I too have wondered why 32 ACP has not been used for target autos. Functionally it should be better, dimensionally it is similar, even with a round nose bullet it should be good enough (.22lr does not need a HBWC).
I would guess some part of it would be the history with the change from 38 Special to 32 SWL, 32 SWL target loads being generally available and none for 32ACP at the time the autos started to appear.
From Yur'yev's book
Toz 36 = 7.62x38.7mm, the bullet is seated deep in the case and the front portion beyond the bullet has a sharper taper.
Toz 49 = 7.62 x26.2 with a simple taper and the bullet seated flush with the top of the case. This is not the same as 7.62x25 Tokarev.
I believe these are both ~600fps.
There is reputed to be an autoloader for the shorter cartridge.
The short cartridge seems straighforward to load providing you have the right dies, ie a custom resizing die - mine is from Simplex. As it is a steel die case lube is required.
Cases are available from Bertram Bullet co.
I did find a 0.310 bullet was required or the cartridge jammed in the tapered chamber. Some people seem to get on OK with ~0.311-0.312.
I have not tried loading the long cartridge.
Good ones seem to be few and far between, I was very lucky to get hold of an excellent example thanks to the generous help of Alex Taransky.
I too have wondered why 32 ACP has not been used for target autos. Functionally it should be better, dimensionally it is similar, even with a round nose bullet it should be good enough (.22lr does not need a HBWC).
I would guess some part of it would be the history with the change from 38 Special to 32 SWL, 32 SWL target loads being generally available and none for 32ACP at the time the autos started to appear.
Thanks for all of your replies. This was the information I was looking for.
Something James H said at the end of his post gave rise to a couple of other questions, however.
I have read that the ladies 25 meter Olympic pistol event derived from Center Fire, and not the reverse. Does anyone know when the Center Fire match was created?
It appears to have first been a competition between athletes using their respective countries service revolvers. Perhaps that was why .38 caliber was originally used (at least in western countries). When did people realize the .32 might be a better choice, and when did the high quality European semi-autos we are familiar with today begin to appear?
Here in the United States, where the .32 was created, it has not been as popular. We have American target shooting disciplines that draw more competitors than those of the ISSF. The various forms of combat simulation shooting are also very popular. The .32 S&W masterpiece revolver (model 16) always sold in far less quantities than the .22 and .38 versions, but today it commands a high premium as a collector's piece because of its rarity.
Something James H said at the end of his post gave rise to a couple of other questions, however.
I have read that the ladies 25 meter Olympic pistol event derived from Center Fire, and not the reverse. Does anyone know when the Center Fire match was created?
It appears to have first been a competition between athletes using their respective countries service revolvers. Perhaps that was why .38 caliber was originally used (at least in western countries). When did people realize the .32 might be a better choice, and when did the high quality European semi-autos we are familiar with today begin to appear?
Here in the United States, where the .32 was created, it has not been as popular. We have American target shooting disciplines that draw more competitors than those of the ISSF. The various forms of combat simulation shooting are also very popular. The .32 S&W masterpiece revolver (model 16) always sold in far less quantities than the .22 and .38 versions, but today it commands a high premium as a collector's piece because of its rarity.
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David Levene
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I'm not sure when it was created but, from the ISSF Hisorical Records, it looks like it made its first World Championship appearance in Stockholm in 1947. (Before Rob Stubbs or PaulT say anything, no, I wasn't there)James Way wrote:Does anyone know when the Center Fire match was created?
Re: .32 ACP - I've heard it said by reliable sources that a good .32 ACP in a good barrel would be at least as precise as the .32 WC, probably superior at 50m. It seems that somebody actually tried it in Italy, but I've never seen the pistol or a report or something like it. I think it would be very interesting to try, not only because of the inherent feeding problems of the S&W long, but because of the generally smaller diameter of the ACP, which would make it suitable - uh, for tube mags...
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Allshooting
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I have been shooting Magtech 32 S&W Long in my Benelli MP95. Some bulletholes in paper (25 meters) have tailmarks. Looks like some bullets go a little sideways. Accuracy is good anyways.
32ACP would be interesting. I noticed 32 ACP is semirimmed case, and dimensions are very close of 32S&W Long. Case is shorter, but it is common to shoot shorter case ammo in revolvers. I bought one box Magtech 32ACP FMJs and tought to try them in Benelli. Cartridges go nicely to magazine and there is enough rim in case, cartridges do not slip too deep in chamber. I think, according to spec, there is 0.01" more headspace with ACP. Have to do some shoot tests sometimes.
32ACP would be interesting. I noticed 32 ACP is semirimmed case, and dimensions are very close of 32S&W Long. Case is shorter, but it is common to shoot shorter case ammo in revolvers. I bought one box Magtech 32ACP FMJs and tought to try them in Benelli. Cartridges go nicely to magazine and there is enough rim in case, cartridges do not slip too deep in chamber. I think, according to spec, there is 0.01" more headspace with ACP. Have to do some shoot tests sometimes.
.32 ACP
Many others have thought of .32 ACP as a target cartridge. However, the bug has always been the semi-rimmed case. The rim is not big enough to reliably headspace the cartridge. Accuracy suffers. A few gunsmiths have made barrels that headspace on the case mouth, with a dramatic improvement in accuracy.
Pardini makes the HP in .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long, I have no experience with the gun, so I cannot comment on accuracy.
What target shooters really need is a .32 caliber rimless straight walled case with an overall length about the size of a .22 Long Rifle, that will shoot a 80 grain bullet about 800 feet per second out of a 6 inch barrel.
OK, all you inventors and manufacturers, there are your design parameters, Now get to work. I assure you that your market is limited and you will not make any money on this deal.
Pardini makes the HP in .32 ACP and .32 S&W Long, I have no experience with the gun, so I cannot comment on accuracy.
What target shooters really need is a .32 caliber rimless straight walled case with an overall length about the size of a .22 Long Rifle, that will shoot a 80 grain bullet about 800 feet per second out of a 6 inch barrel.
OK, all you inventors and manufacturers, there are your design parameters, Now get to work. I assure you that your market is limited and you will not make any money on this deal.
Someone recently posted that they had won the timed fire bullseye match at Perry this year with a Pardini 32 ACP. It seems to me that he was going to start importing those and had a web site. A search should come up with info on him.
If you have problems with tipping bullets, try trimming your brass and likely it will disappear. -- Bill --
If you have problems with tipping bullets, try trimming your brass and likely it will disappear. -- Bill --
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Allshooting
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.32 S&W Long
I put 50 rounds of S&B factory ammo through my brand new never-been-fired Hammerli SP20 last night. My worst group was 10 cm centre to centre.
.32 S&W Long
Sorry, to clarify that was at 25 yards.
No, I didn't use iron sights on the 32 groups. I use a Leupold 2-8 pistol scope and rest the gun in a sandbag. If you use iron sights to test groups it is too time consuming because of the concentration level necessary. For some guns it is required though because they won't hold a scope. Sometimes guns shoot so badly when you don't expect them to that you start to question yourself. The best thing to do when this happens is to shoot a group with a 22 with iron sights that you know will do the job to prove it is not you. I far and away prefer to use my Ransom rest but my Benelli won't fit in it. Some here have made inserts for it and said that they had good results but I have never tried that yet.
As a beginner if you keep all of them on the paper you are doing fine. It is typical for a beginner to have a fair group in the center and have wild shots (lack of trigger control) on the outside. As you progress, you will have less shots that are wild. One great advantage you have is that you started off with good guns and a good trigger benefits a beginner way more than someone seasoned. Last year my good friend Vic shot a 50 yard slow fire score in a 2700 match with his self accurized 45 of 99 and he is 70 years old. He used 700X and a Saeco molded 068 bullet and uses an ultradot scope. That group had to be less than about 4 inches except for the 9.-- Bill --
As a beginner if you keep all of them on the paper you are doing fine. It is typical for a beginner to have a fair group in the center and have wild shots (lack of trigger control) on the outside. As you progress, you will have less shots that are wild. One great advantage you have is that you started off with good guns and a good trigger benefits a beginner way more than someone seasoned. Last year my good friend Vic shot a 50 yard slow fire score in a 2700 match with his self accurized 45 of 99 and he is 70 years old. He used 700X and a Saeco molded 068 bullet and uses an ultradot scope. That group had to be less than about 4 inches except for the 9.-- Bill --
You guys can flat out shoot. At 50 yards standing and with two hands I manage to keep most of my shots inside a 6 inch target with an aim point micro. That's on a walther gsp.
With iron on my les Baer 45 forget it I barely have any.
Your friend Bill shot that score with one hand at 50 yards is something to be proud of.
Richie
With iron on my les Baer 45 forget it I barely have any.
Your friend Bill shot that score with one hand at 50 yards is something to be proud of.
Richie
When you think about it Richie, not only did he have to be that good, but the gun did too and the ammo also had to. Added to all this, he had to have had a pretty good zero where his group was perfectly centered. Since that time in our weekly practice session, he has shot a perfect 100 but it was at a reduced 25 yard slow fire target fired at 25 yards. I usually shoot higher scores at the reduced target than I do at the full 50 even though they are supposed to be the same but I have never shot a 100 at either distance. Vic seems to almost always shoot good slow fires and not as good at timed and even worse at rapid. I am the opposite and shoot timed and rapid real well but slow fires are worse. I think different personalities make a person better at one or the other. If you can find someone there that has shot Bullseye for a time, see if you can get them to coach you because it will make a world of a difference. Sometimes just 10 minutes will change your groups by half.-- Bill --
Hi Bill:
This weekend on the practice range i found out exactly what you just said. The slower i empty the magazine the wobblier i was. Maybe too much time to think. I am improving every week as now 35/100 shots are in the 10 area at 25 yards and about 15 at 50 yards. There were NONE when i started shooting at the end of August. I became a doctor so i am used to the studying and science aspect.
I am in the process of looking for a coach. Easier said than done here in New York although i would even fly for a couple days of instruction.
Thanks again i enjoy the feedback and advice very much.
This weekend on the practice range i found out exactly what you just said. The slower i empty the magazine the wobblier i was. Maybe too much time to think. I am improving every week as now 35/100 shots are in the 10 area at 25 yards and about 15 at 50 yards. There were NONE when i started shooting at the end of August. I became a doctor so i am used to the studying and science aspect.
I am in the process of looking for a coach. Easier said than done here in New York although i would even fly for a couple days of instruction.
Thanks again i enjoy the feedback and advice very much.