Gun weight problems
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Gun weight problems
I recently purchased a 2013 anschutz rifle in a 2313 stock. It has the longer barrel, I think it is the 660 or 690mm. I have shot it some and find that in standing my lower back begins to hurt. I believe this is do to the fact that the rifle weighs close to 14 pounds and I am only 5' 7'' and 125lbs. I was wondering if there is anything that can be done ro help me? I have added a little weight to the back to allieviate it being so front heavy but I still have some problems. Any ideas are appreciated. TEN DOT
If you have the 690 barrel, that would make your rifle the 2013. I am your height and 5 pounds heavier, and I do not shoot a super match action (term for any heavier barrels, i.e 1907 v. 1913 super match). I have shot an older Anschutz that weighed at least 14.5 to 15 pounds, and it was too heavy. I shot a 1907 in an 1813 stock, and now I shoot a 1907 in a 1918 precise stock. My setup with my palm rest weighs about 13.5 pounds, 12.5 without the metal palmrest.
I have also seen another shooter who was about 10 pounds larger than me and a few inches taller, and he had trouble in offhand with a 1913 in a aluminum stock. He did try back weight, but a couple years later he ended up with a 2013 short barreled action in a aluminum stock. It helped him. So, having said all this, here are some options.
1. Cut your barrel down in length, and add a bloop tube. I have seen many shooters do well in offhand with a short barrel and bloop tube (as well as in prone). You will find that it will help your balance and feel better on your back.
2. You can put a 2007-660 action in your stock (the 2013 with the lighter, full length barrel)
Also, make sure your have an upright position, and you are not leaning way back if you are having problems with your back.
Unfortunately, these options could be expensive. I have no idea how much it costs to cut down the barrel and add a tube, but I imagine it will probably be cheaper then trying to sell a 2013 barreled action. However, you do not want the back pain. You could end up with more problems down the road.
I have also seen another shooter who was about 10 pounds larger than me and a few inches taller, and he had trouble in offhand with a 1913 in a aluminum stock. He did try back weight, but a couple years later he ended up with a 2013 short barreled action in a aluminum stock. It helped him. So, having said all this, here are some options.
1. Cut your barrel down in length, and add a bloop tube. I have seen many shooters do well in offhand with a short barrel and bloop tube (as well as in prone). You will find that it will help your balance and feel better on your back.
2. You can put a 2007-660 action in your stock (the 2013 with the lighter, full length barrel)
Also, make sure your have an upright position, and you are not leaning way back if you are having problems with your back.
Unfortunately, these options could be expensive. I have no idea how much it costs to cut down the barrel and add a tube, but I imagine it will probably be cheaper then trying to sell a 2013 barreled action. However, you do not want the back pain. You could end up with more problems down the road.
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WesternGrizzly
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:43 pm
The only way you can cut down an Anschutz barrel and still have it shoot is from the chamber end. The reason for this is because the barrel has whats called a choke in the barrel. The choke is a constriction of the barrel. This is cause by the swell at the end of the barrel. So if you want to get the barrel shorter and still be able to shoot, you will need to send it to a gunsmith, have him cut off a few inches from the chamber end of the barrel and then have him re chamber it and cut the extractor grooves into the barrel (or a cone breach and have him index it).
I shoot a 2013 with a 500mm barrel with a 12 inch bloop tube in a MEC stock. It isn't overly heavy, (i actually want it heavier) its just muzzle heavy because of the bloop tube.
Matt
I shoot a 2013 with a 500mm barrel with a 12 inch bloop tube in a MEC stock. It isn't overly heavy, (i actually want it heavier) its just muzzle heavy because of the bloop tube.
Matt
My daughter just went through exactly the same thing. She was having front end weight problems with a 1813. We ended up sending it to Mac Tilton of MT Guns to be shortened. We shortened it 10" and added a 10" bloop tube. We did not clamp it up before and after for a real accuracy test. We did shoot it off the bench scoped before and after. If anything the rifle shot better with the same lots of ammo after being shortened. I would definitely recommend the short, heavy barrel with bloop tube. I would recommend Mac also. He spent time with us on the phone and helped us through the options. He was also very reasonably priced. I believe shortening the 2013 may be less expensive because of the design of the action.
I think Lilja barrels may have a barrel that you can purchase and easily replace on a 2013 action.
I think Lilja barrels may have a barrel that you can purchase and easily replace on a 2013 action.
Ok well that sounds like an option but is there anything I could do that won't cost much Or anything at all? Would there be any position changes I could do? I shoot with my legs 41 in apart and have my hand right in front of the action. If I can I will post a pic later. Any ideas appreciated. TEN DOT
Time to clear up a myth: There is no problem cutting an Anschutz barrel from the front end.
As Grizzy states, there is a slight choke to the muzzle end of the barrel. This choke gives the barrel a little extra life but actually degrades the accuracy a little bit. Both Karl Kenyon and Neal Johnson used to regularly set the muzzle crown of an Anschutz barrel back around an inch and a quarter to remove this choke. The result was pretty much universally a more accurate rifle.
I am attaching a picture of the muzzle on my 18xx heavy barrel. Done by Karl about 20 years ago. Torqued and matched to ammo I get .35 caliber 5 shot groups at 50 yards. The crown goes back to about halfway between the two rear sight block screw holes.
Cutting the Anschutz from the front is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and so long as it is done by a competent gunsmith who knows how to work with smallbore target rifles this should not be a problem. Now, if you like you can also remove the barrel cut some off the back and have the chamber made a touch tighter and the headspace reduced to minimum to improve accuracy a bit more but this is not necessary.
Don't be afraid to cut from the front.
Cheers,
'Dude
As Grizzy states, there is a slight choke to the muzzle end of the barrel. This choke gives the barrel a little extra life but actually degrades the accuracy a little bit. Both Karl Kenyon and Neal Johnson used to regularly set the muzzle crown of an Anschutz barrel back around an inch and a quarter to remove this choke. The result was pretty much universally a more accurate rifle.
I am attaching a picture of the muzzle on my 18xx heavy barrel. Done by Karl about 20 years ago. Torqued and matched to ammo I get .35 caliber 5 shot groups at 50 yards. The crown goes back to about halfway between the two rear sight block screw holes.
Cutting the Anschutz from the front is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and so long as it is done by a competent gunsmith who knows how to work with smallbore target rifles this should not be a problem. Now, if you like you can also remove the barrel cut some off the back and have the chamber made a touch tighter and the headspace reduced to minimum to improve accuracy a bit more but this is not necessary.
Don't be afraid to cut from the front.
Cheers,
'Dude
- Attachments
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- Choke removed from muzzle by Karl Kenyon.
Couple things you could do.
1. Shoot with your hand in a fist position. This of course is me assuming you are using the palm of your hand. Set yourself in an upright position such that you do not have to lean far back to set the rifle up. This will help alleviate the weight of the rifle.
2. Narrow your foot stance: I do not know if this will help with the weight of your rifle. However, this will help with your back pain. 41in is awful far apart. Personally, I shoot with my feet 19in apart,(outside of left foot to inside of right foot), but this stance is a little more narrow than other shooters. However, it is still wider than shoulder width apart. When you post up pictures I'm sure it will help any input. 41 inches is awful far apart, and won't be good on your back. However, any input about foot width would be great, I'm not an expert on the subject.
1. Shoot with your hand in a fist position. This of course is me assuming you are using the palm of your hand. Set yourself in an upright position such that you do not have to lean far back to set the rifle up. This will help alleviate the weight of the rifle.
2. Narrow your foot stance: I do not know if this will help with the weight of your rifle. However, this will help with your back pain. 41in is awful far apart. Personally, I shoot with my feet 19in apart,(outside of left foot to inside of right foot), but this stance is a little more narrow than other shooters. However, it is still wider than shoulder width apart. When you post up pictures I'm sure it will help any input. 41 inches is awful far apart, and won't be good on your back. However, any input about foot width would be great, I'm not an expert on the subject.
The Bench-Rest accuracy freaks use short stiff barrels for maximum performance. They have no chokes in their barrels.
It is simple and cheap (cheaper than a worthless chiropractor) to whack off as much as you like from the front of the barrel and have it recrowned, but you can't have it done by some hack.
It is simple and cheap (cheaper than a worthless chiropractor) to whack off as much as you like from the front of the barrel and have it recrowned, but you can't have it done by some hack.
Last edited by Rover on Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ask Neal Stepp at International Shooters Service in Ft. Worth.
http://www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com/
http://www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com/
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WesternGrizzly
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:43 pm
Actually the benchrest rimfire guys almost universally use barrels with choke in them. The modern rimfire barrels by the top US makers all have some degree of choke down the lenght of the barrel. It is usually in the range of 0.0008" total change in 24-26", but there is choke.
I've cut off the end of Anschutz barrels and had no bad side effects, for just the reason the OP posted about...weight and ballance. This is assuming a good barrel to start with though.
Eric U
I've cut off the end of Anschutz barrels and had no bad side effects, for just the reason the OP posted about...weight and ballance. This is assuming a good barrel to start with though.
Eric U
Most if not all barrels regardless of caliber have a tight end and a loose end. Most manufacturers select the tight end for muzzle on a pre contoured blank or mark the chamber end on the loose end of a straight blank.
If shortening a finished barrel for weight reduction or balance, run a patch through the barrel and determine the tightest point and cut it off there as long as you maintain FIRST, the legal BATFE length of 16 inches, and then the legal length for your discipline. This turns a great cut off shooter into a phenomenal cut off shooter.
If shortening a finished barrel for weight reduction or balance, run a patch through the barrel and determine the tightest point and cut it off there as long as you maintain FIRST, the legal BATFE length of 16 inches, and then the legal length for your discipline. This turns a great cut off shooter into a phenomenal cut off shooter.
Rather than cut the barrel with unpredictable results (it may still shoot or it may not.) why not get a drop in replacement for the 2013 action - something like a 21" Lilja with cone breach. OK, it's a few hundred bucks but it won't destroy the resale value of your rifle like cutting the barrel down might.
Swapping barrels on the 20 series action is relatively simple as they are clamped in. Just don't torque the bolts too tight... apparently.
That'd be what I'd do anyway.
I thought that the way the Anschutz (buttoned) barrel was profiled - thicker at the muzzle - naturally induced some choke to the bore.
Taper Lapping seems to be the current fashion.
Maybe I should stop lurking on those Benchrest forums........
K.
Swapping barrels on the 20 series action is relatively simple as they are clamped in. Just don't torque the bolts too tight... apparently.
That'd be what I'd do anyway.
I thought that the way the Anschutz (buttoned) barrel was profiled - thicker at the muzzle - naturally induced some choke to the bore.
Taper Lapping seems to be the current fashion.
Maybe I should stop lurking on those Benchrest forums........
K.
Just to add something, my very good friend recently installed a drop-in Lilja on a top shooter's 2013. It didn't shoot as good as the barrel that came off of the gun. He redid the chamber end and then cut it off as I stated earlier on the muzzle end the the competitor set a new Senior record with the gun at Camp Perry.
ETA To clarify my post, he did the work to the drop in Lilja. It also was a Prone Senior Record.
ETA To clarify my post, he did the work to the drop in Lilja. It also was a Prone Senior Record.
Cutting
I had this conversation with Neal and he recommends against cutting from the front end and only doing it from the rear.Rover wrote:Ask Neal Stepp at International Shooters Service in Ft. Worth.
http://www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com/
There isn't many cheap solutions when it comes to make a rifle lighter. The most frequent solution especially when most of the weight is in the barreled action. You can probably cut two pounds off the weight by cutting the barrel down. If you buy a 1914 the rifle is about 12 lbs already. I agree with the choke comment all our rifles that still have them are shooting groups at .220 or .224.frog5215 wrote:She says she's 125# and the gun is 14 #. Too way too heavy.
WesternGrizzly wrote:I wont start an arguement with 'Dude, but I think that the choke is important. My gun averages about .220 groups at 50 M. It has a choke.
Are you sure that the gun is too heavy? It might just be muzzle heavy.
Matt
With regard to the original post, it has been said essentially, a rifle that is 10% or more of the body weight is just too massive, regardless of the balance point. I also note TENDOT says the legs are 41 inches apart. Without pictures this seems like a lot to me, even if you are going from outside edge to outside edge of the feet. Perhaps a position with the feet closer together would reduce some of the strain on the lower back. Without pictures, just conjecture.
Was not trying to start an argument about the choke or taper so much as dispel the myth that the choke at the muzzzle on the Anschutz barrel is somehow sacred. I have listened to people go on in great discourse about how the choke on the Anschutz barrel is somehow magical and if anything happens to that choke all the magic goes away. At the same time I have two Anschutz barrels where the choke was deliberately removed and they shot better after doing so. ...So much for the choke being magical.
Note that does not mean that if I removed the choke on a third Anschutz barrel that would necessarily improve that one as well but I would not be afraid of doing so.
A number of other people have noted they had barrels cut from the muzzle end and they shot fine when done.
What I take away from this would be you can cut the barrel from either end. So long as it is done by someone who knows what they are doing using machinery in good shape you will likely be no worse off in the end than when you started. If the job is done with some planning you can easily end up with a better barrel.
Sorry there is no cheap solution to the barrel problem.
In the "by the way" category a few folks have mentioned 0.22 groups. I assume that is the center to center distance. In my first post on the thread I noted .35 caliber holes from a barrel with the choke removed, I am old school, this is outside extreme to outside extreme, in center to center terms that works out to 0.17. Will it do it every time?, no, a typical 5 shot group is probably in line with the other numbers cited. Now this is with the help of one of Eric U's tuner tubes, some careful work with a torque gauge and selecting a lot of Eley.
At the end of the day, you just have to do what makes you comfortable.
Cheers,
'Dude
Was not trying to start an argument about the choke or taper so much as dispel the myth that the choke at the muzzzle on the Anschutz barrel is somehow sacred. I have listened to people go on in great discourse about how the choke on the Anschutz barrel is somehow magical and if anything happens to that choke all the magic goes away. At the same time I have two Anschutz barrels where the choke was deliberately removed and they shot better after doing so. ...So much for the choke being magical.
Note that does not mean that if I removed the choke on a third Anschutz barrel that would necessarily improve that one as well but I would not be afraid of doing so.
A number of other people have noted they had barrels cut from the muzzle end and they shot fine when done.
What I take away from this would be you can cut the barrel from either end. So long as it is done by someone who knows what they are doing using machinery in good shape you will likely be no worse off in the end than when you started. If the job is done with some planning you can easily end up with a better barrel.
Sorry there is no cheap solution to the barrel problem.
In the "by the way" category a few folks have mentioned 0.22 groups. I assume that is the center to center distance. In my first post on the thread I noted .35 caliber holes from a barrel with the choke removed, I am old school, this is outside extreme to outside extreme, in center to center terms that works out to 0.17. Will it do it every time?, no, a typical 5 shot group is probably in line with the other numbers cited. Now this is with the help of one of Eric U's tuner tubes, some careful work with a torque gauge and selecting a lot of Eley.
At the end of the day, you just have to do what makes you comfortable.
Cheers,
'Dude