I wonder why there is such a great difference in position between the standing positions in smallbore and High Power. Smallbore shooters largely use variations of the international position: pronounced backbend; "closed" hips parallel to the line of fire; elbow resting on hip that is thrusting forward; relatively wide stance; feet perpendicular to line of fire.
High power shooters, on the other hand, typically use very little backbend; their hips are "open", rotated toward the target; the body is erect; the feet are close together and splayed out.
Why these differences? Is it just that the relatively undemanding 3.5MOA 10-ring hasn't stimulated the kind of development of position and equipment seen in smallbore? Or could the following factors also have played a role?
- High power shooters have to stand on uneven terrain, whereas smallbore shooters usually stand on flat floors.
- High power shooters have to shoot in the wind, whereas smallbore shooters usually shoot under shelter.
- High power shooters have less time per shot compared to smallbore shooters.
- The smallbore position is developed around shooting pants and boots, articles of clothing prohibited and impractical in High Power.
Thoughts?
How well does smallbore standing compare to High Power?
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john bickar
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Re: How well does smallbore standing compare to High Power?
I'm not a smallbore shooter, and only a marksman-to-sharpshooter level shooter in highpower, but my guess is that this is the answer. (N.B.: my opinion is suspect.) I think it also has to do with the weight of the rifle, to a lesser degree.Anonymous wrote:Is it just that the relatively undemanding 3.5MOA 10-ring hasn't stimulated the kind of development of position and equipment seen in smallbore?
As a pistol shooter, I actually find offhand to be the easiest position in highpower: get your position, minimize movement, squeeze through the movement. I find the 200-yard 9-ring to be relatively large with that mentality.
And I have no coaching whatsoever on offhand position.
(FWIW I shoot a Garand for highpower, and usually shoot offhand in the 90-92 range.)
I have had the good fortune to watch a number of top rifle competitors shoot offhand in both international and highpower. My observation is that the top international shooters (smallbore and especially air) take offhand much more seriously than highpower shooters.
Actually, that's not true. The very top highpower shooters (e.g., Jim O.) take offhand seriously. And I can tell that's why they win the matches. My observation is that a lot of really good highpower shooters do what they have to do to win highpower matches, but their sense of purpose is not in the same league as I see in International offhand.
I don't mean to denigrate people that can shoot circles around me (and they all can), this is just what I've observed as a pistol shooter who's dabbled in highpower. My exposure to rifle shooting is biased by watching many of the top rifle shooters in the world.
(There are many more qualified posters on TT than me on this topic, so you should probably consider this post just a f*rt in the wind.)
There are two other factors here that might need to be considered: recoil and adjustability.
compared to either a 22 or an air rifle even an AR has significant recoil, then if you go to something 30 caliber you are in a whole new league above that. The postion must be constructed so that it will not only be stable enough to deliver a good shot but also allow you to remain upright after you do it.
Next, the ergonomics of either an AR or a Garand are fixed. There is pretty much no way I can get myself wrapped around either and still have a position that looks like my smallbore position with my fully adjustable Anschutz. For smallbore we can adapt the rifle to the shooter, for highpower you typically have to adjust the shooter to the rifle.
Just my 2 cents on the topic.
'Dude
compared to either a 22 or an air rifle even an AR has significant recoil, then if you go to something 30 caliber you are in a whole new league above that. The postion must be constructed so that it will not only be stable enough to deliver a good shot but also allow you to remain upright after you do it.
Next, the ergonomics of either an AR or a Garand are fixed. There is pretty much no way I can get myself wrapped around either and still have a position that looks like my smallbore position with my fully adjustable Anschutz. For smallbore we can adapt the rifle to the shooter, for highpower you typically have to adjust the shooter to the rifle.
Just my 2 cents on the topic.
'Dude
I can comment on this as I am diving into high-power having been a small bore shooter my whole life. I'm double distinguished in small bore and high-power seemed like the next logical step.
Thus far, standing has frustrated me due to building a position based on mis-information. I have built two positioned based on international form. One with my left (support) hand palm towards me and the trigger guard in the mushy part between my thumb and forefinger. Yes, this means both of my hands are inside the magazine, but it worked very well. Then I was informed you can use a 20rd magazine as a palm rest, which made my small bore position possible in high power. My left hand is palm up, fingers on the left of the magazine, thumb on the right. So there are two international positions with an AR that have worked well for me. I'm now trying to figure out which on I'll run with.
Now I'm 6'2", but I have zero ergonomically issues with an AR in any position. My high-power sitting position is actually better than my small bore version. I can see smaller shooters having a few ergonomical issues with an AR, but I don't think that is an issue.
The 10 ring being massive is a good theory. I shanked a shot badly in my first match, and got a 10 on the line. I laughed and moved on.
I have heard theories that due to the lock time being much shorter in high-power, you can squeeze the shot off as you swing through the center of the target with repeatable success. My experience agrees with this theory, but I'm not sure it's due to target size or the reduced lock time.
I think the reason high-power shooters don't put the same emphasis on standing as small bore shooters is that standing isn't the game changing position it is in small bore. I've been shooting just leg matches which are 10 shots standing in 10min and 10 shots sitting in 60 sec at 200 yards, 10 shots prone in 70sec at 300 yards, and 20 shots prone in 20min at 600 yards. Only 1/5 of the shots are standing, and due to the large target and slow fire shooting of standing, you don't drop as many points. I'm royally pissed I havent cleaned standing yet in high-power (3 matches, 98, 96, 97).
My struggles have been with rapid fire and 600. With no sighters in leg matches, combined with my inexperience with winds at those distances, I'm having trouble with my come ups and windage dopes. In rapid fire, this means all 10 of your shots are off. I've had rapid groups at both 200 and 300 that are about the size of the X ring, but centered out in the 8 ring. There goes 20 points after dropping 4 standing. Finally, at 600 , you're at the mercy of the wind and mirage. My last match, I was trying to figure out which of the 4 flags and 3 mirages I should watch. I'd shoot 10, X, X, 7. No change in anything as I can tell.
I have learned thus far that wind reading will gain me more points than perfecting the fundamentals of any of my positions. But darn it, I'm gonna clean standing sometime soon.
Thus far, standing has frustrated me due to building a position based on mis-information. I have built two positioned based on international form. One with my left (support) hand palm towards me and the trigger guard in the mushy part between my thumb and forefinger. Yes, this means both of my hands are inside the magazine, but it worked very well. Then I was informed you can use a 20rd magazine as a palm rest, which made my small bore position possible in high power. My left hand is palm up, fingers on the left of the magazine, thumb on the right. So there are two international positions with an AR that have worked well for me. I'm now trying to figure out which on I'll run with.
Now I'm 6'2", but I have zero ergonomically issues with an AR in any position. My high-power sitting position is actually better than my small bore version. I can see smaller shooters having a few ergonomical issues with an AR, but I don't think that is an issue.
The 10 ring being massive is a good theory. I shanked a shot badly in my first match, and got a 10 on the line. I laughed and moved on.
I have heard theories that due to the lock time being much shorter in high-power, you can squeeze the shot off as you swing through the center of the target with repeatable success. My experience agrees with this theory, but I'm not sure it's due to target size or the reduced lock time.
I think the reason high-power shooters don't put the same emphasis on standing as small bore shooters is that standing isn't the game changing position it is in small bore. I've been shooting just leg matches which are 10 shots standing in 10min and 10 shots sitting in 60 sec at 200 yards, 10 shots prone in 70sec at 300 yards, and 20 shots prone in 20min at 600 yards. Only 1/5 of the shots are standing, and due to the large target and slow fire shooting of standing, you don't drop as many points. I'm royally pissed I havent cleaned standing yet in high-power (3 matches, 98, 96, 97).
My struggles have been with rapid fire and 600. With no sighters in leg matches, combined with my inexperience with winds at those distances, I'm having trouble with my come ups and windage dopes. In rapid fire, this means all 10 of your shots are off. I've had rapid groups at both 200 and 300 that are about the size of the X ring, but centered out in the 8 ring. There goes 20 points after dropping 4 standing. Finally, at 600 , you're at the mercy of the wind and mirage. My last match, I was trying to figure out which of the 4 flags and 3 mirages I should watch. I'd shoot 10, X, X, 7. No change in anything as I can tell.
I have learned thus far that wind reading will gain me more points than perfecting the fundamentals of any of my positions. But darn it, I'm gonna clean standing sometime soon.
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2650 Plus
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Gary Anderson, standing record holder at Camp Perry, was a top international shooter [gold medal wotld champiomship in Ciaro} was not only left handed but as far as iI could tell, used the same basic position for both disciplines. You mighe ask him what thr difference is;l Good Shooting Bill Horton
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1813Anschutz
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I am a Master in both, distinguished in HP, AAA in Silhoutte and use the exact same position for all. My high power rifle is still an M1A. Haven't shot since 2009 but used to routinely shoot 193-195.
When I legged out I had the good fortune of shooting a 99 with no tens on the target. First round was a 9 and then I found the X ring and was lucky enough to stay there for 9 rounds.
I was also quite fortunate to have been coached by Lones Wigger Sr. His coaching got me my first 100 offhand in smallbore (A-36) in 1988. The only target I ever saved... as it it was witnessed, scored,dated and signed by Lones Sr. himself.
So smallbore and air rifle have worked well for me in Hi Power offhand...
might work for you as well. Why change something that sounds like it worked well for you?
Randy
When I legged out I had the good fortune of shooting a 99 with no tens on the target. First round was a 9 and then I found the X ring and was lucky enough to stay there for 9 rounds.
I was also quite fortunate to have been coached by Lones Wigger Sr. His coaching got me my first 100 offhand in smallbore (A-36) in 1988. The only target I ever saved... as it it was witnessed, scored,dated and signed by Lones Sr. himself.
So smallbore and air rifle have worked well for me in Hi Power offhand...
might work for you as well. Why change something that sounds like it worked well for you?
Randy
I have found this to be the case without question when going from 10m air rifle to Smallbore to High Power. The amount of follow through is reduced dramatically with High Power since it is moving so fast. I just started to shoot HP Silhouette and have been shooting Air and SB sils for about 4 years now. When I am settling on the break spot with air and SB rifles I can start to get on the trigger as I ease into the animal. Yet if I try this same technique for HP I end up breaking the shot to soon and missing just off the edge. I learned fast that you can't float into the target using the slower lock time of air or SB rilfes. You don't pull the trigger till it is in the animal and on the spot and the round is gone. No lingering around to get out the barrel.Soupy44 wrote:I have heard theories that due to the lock time being much shorter in high-power, you can squeeze the shot off as you swing through the center of the target with repeatable success. My experience agrees with this theory, but I'm not sure it's due to target size or the reduced lock time.
All that being said I think air and SB are great practice for HP as you have more demand for proper technique and follow through with them that carries over to HP without the need for follow through really or just the smallest little bit.
Oh and I use the same stance and hold for all rifles from Air to HP. Might be a bit more upright with HP for balance and recoil absorbtion but not by much.
Bo
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bluetentacle
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I'm the one who started this thread (I accidentally posted it without logging in). My intention was to find out whether there's any legitimate reason for the dominant position in HP to be so different from that in smallbore. The general consensus on this board, so far, is NO.
My own position is based pretty much entirely on the conventions laid out in The Ways of the Rifle: hips closed to the target, feet inline with the target, rifle positioned over the CoG of the body. As shown in the photograph, I also use a means of indexing my feet, another practice I learned from observing international shooting. It's worked fairly well for me in HP. I average 192-194 in the offhand stage. Not that I'm satisfied with these scores: I firmly believe that, when top international shooters can hit a 1MOA 10-ring 95+% of the time, regularly cleaning the offhand stage in HP should be perfectly attainable for most people, given the correct techniques and training.
I will be starting smallbore training, with coaching, in a couple of weeks. My goal is to shoot 3P at an international level.
My own position is based pretty much entirely on the conventions laid out in The Ways of the Rifle: hips closed to the target, feet inline with the target, rifle positioned over the CoG of the body. As shown in the photograph, I also use a means of indexing my feet, another practice I learned from observing international shooting. It's worked fairly well for me in HP. I average 192-194 in the offhand stage. Not that I'm satisfied with these scores: I firmly believe that, when top international shooters can hit a 1MOA 10-ring 95+% of the time, regularly cleaning the offhand stage in HP should be perfectly attainable for most people, given the correct techniques and training.
I will be starting smallbore training, with coaching, in a couple of weeks. My goal is to shoot 3P at an international level.
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1813Anschutz
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Your position looks fine...practice and more practice. My offhand really took off when I followed Wigger's advice...that being get a good air rifle and shoot A36 targets at 50 feet. If you can stay in the 9 ring or better you are going to be very strong in offhand regardless of the shooting disipline.
His suggestion was that I not advance to the next bull until I had a min. of 3 9's or better.
The follow through I learned on air rifle transferred directly to Smallbore and ultimately to Hi Power.
Might work for you as well.
Randy
His suggestion was that I not advance to the next bull until I had a min. of 3 9's or better.
The follow through I learned on air rifle transferred directly to Smallbore and ultimately to Hi Power.
Might work for you as well.
Randy
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bluetentacle
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Standing Fullbore
I think you'll find the difference is because you are shooting with a military style hi power rifle and comparing to .22 target rifles.
My wife shot fullbore positional in the 80's, (pic enclosed) she was a Ladies GB team air rifle shooter and shot in exactly the same position and hold. She used a Standard rifle in .308W with a 3 lb trigger and that, recoil, and the wind were the major factors in score although on a good day the scores were little different.
The current match fullbores are mostly in 6mm BR in the same stocks as the smallbores with similar triggers and I think the scores are similar, probably wind making the most difference.
Robin
My wife shot fullbore positional in the 80's, (pic enclosed) she was a Ladies GB team air rifle shooter and shot in exactly the same position and hold. She used a Standard rifle in .308W with a 3 lb trigger and that, recoil, and the wind were the major factors in score although on a good day the scores were little different.
The current match fullbores are mostly in 6mm BR in the same stocks as the smallbores with similar triggers and I think the scores are similar, probably wind making the most difference.
Robin
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Hi Blue,
I admire your desire to improve your offhand shooting. I kind of want to take issue though with your statement: "Regularly cleaning the offhand target in high power should be perfectly attainable." That is certainly a laudable goal, but I don't think it is attainable by most shooters. Look at the scores for the recently completed US CMP and NRA National Championships at Camp Perry (scores are on their websites). There were some good shooters there. In the CMP National Trophy Match, about 1200 shooters, there was not a single clean. I think there were 2 99s and a few 98s among the top 25 shooters. For some of these participants, the US Army Marksmenship Unit, shooting is what they do practically full time. In the NRA championshps Carl Bernoski in the 3 offhand rounds Carl Bernowsky shot 197/11X, 199/5X, and 200/15X. (The last score tied a record that had stood for about 30 years held by Gary Anderson.) The highpower target is an easier target (larger 10 ring than the 300M target, but, I think the X ring is approximately 1MOA.
I just don't think most people are going to be capable of cleaning the HP target.
If I may say regarding your offhand stance. You appear to be leaning your head slightly forward (maybe to get your nose on the charging handle of the AR 15) and your weight seems to be primarily on your front foot. If that feels right for you good. Just an observation.
Good luck in your endeavor.
I admire your desire to improve your offhand shooting. I kind of want to take issue though with your statement: "Regularly cleaning the offhand target in high power should be perfectly attainable." That is certainly a laudable goal, but I don't think it is attainable by most shooters. Look at the scores for the recently completed US CMP and NRA National Championships at Camp Perry (scores are on their websites). There were some good shooters there. In the CMP National Trophy Match, about 1200 shooters, there was not a single clean. I think there were 2 99s and a few 98s among the top 25 shooters. For some of these participants, the US Army Marksmenship Unit, shooting is what they do practically full time. In the NRA championshps Carl Bernoski in the 3 offhand rounds Carl Bernowsky shot 197/11X, 199/5X, and 200/15X. (The last score tied a record that had stood for about 30 years held by Gary Anderson.) The highpower target is an easier target (larger 10 ring than the 300M target, but, I think the X ring is approximately 1MOA.
I just don't think most people are going to be capable of cleaning the HP target.
If I may say regarding your offhand stance. You appear to be leaning your head slightly forward (maybe to get your nose on the charging handle of the AR 15) and your weight seems to be primarily on your front foot. If that feels right for you good. Just an observation.
Good luck in your endeavor.
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1813Anschutz
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For hi power rifle training on my air rifle I simply put a post front sight into the air rifle to simulate my AR or my M1A. On a training day I used to shoot an A-36 target (12 Bull) at 50 feet in my back yard. Minimum was 5 rounds per bull. My rifle is a Feinwerkbau 600 using Meisterklugen or HN pellets.
Another thing that I concentrated on was being able to accurately call my shots before looking at the scope. This is an invaluable skill in all disciplines.
My shooting coat is the same for all as I only have one ISU shooting coat. Jack Foster told me many years ago to get an ISU legal coat and then I would be legal for any hi power match. He was right. Many used to comment on my ISU coat on the high power line....again Jack was right!
Follow through is critical on an air rifle and if you have good follow through with the air gun it carried through to the big bores, therefore vastly improving my scores.
When I was shooting a lot of hi power I would do this (air rifle) about three times a week and then maybe once a week for live fire with any of my hi power rifles, usually my M1A as it was and remains my favorite hi power rifle.
I have no experience at all with the SCATT system you mention...
hope that helps you out in some manner.....
Randy
Another thing that I concentrated on was being able to accurately call my shots before looking at the scope. This is an invaluable skill in all disciplines.
My shooting coat is the same for all as I only have one ISU shooting coat. Jack Foster told me many years ago to get an ISU legal coat and then I would be legal for any hi power match. He was right. Many used to comment on my ISU coat on the high power line....again Jack was right!
Follow through is critical on an air rifle and if you have good follow through with the air gun it carried through to the big bores, therefore vastly improving my scores.
When I was shooting a lot of hi power I would do this (air rifle) about three times a week and then maybe once a week for live fire with any of my hi power rifles, usually my M1A as it was and remains my favorite hi power rifle.
I have no experience at all with the SCATT system you mention...
hope that helps you out in some manner.....
Randy
Bluetentacle, I am not experienced in Hi power, but like yourself, I did read David Tubbs books very carefully, reasoning that a good shooter was a good shooter, and he had something important to say. (It also really helps that his first native language was not German or Russian, for making his advice more accessible). He admits that his own small bore 3p background influenced many aspects of his high power shooting technique. You can also see the slow evolution of ergonomic design migrating from International Small Bore to Hi-Power, in his rifles and in some of the other so called 'space guns' out there. Of course, service rifle not with standing.
As an aside, Tubbs opines that small bore was more equipment intensive fussy, and that the average club supplied SB gear was not capable of a high enough relative performance to encourage beginners because the margin of error on the A-36 was so unforgiving.
Based on his theory, I bought new and accurate equipment for myself so I did not have an area of relative comparison for what he was talking about (and partly to avoid that problem).
The different disciplines have different demands that have nuanced overlaps. Kind of like MMA, if you pay real close attention to one, you can't fail to pick up something useful for the other.
As an aside, Tubbs opines that small bore was more equipment intensive fussy, and that the average club supplied SB gear was not capable of a high enough relative performance to encourage beginners because the margin of error on the A-36 was so unforgiving.
Based on his theory, I bought new and accurate equipment for myself so I did not have an area of relative comparison for what he was talking about (and partly to avoid that problem).
The different disciplines have different demands that have nuanced overlaps. Kind of like MMA, if you pay real close attention to one, you can't fail to pick up something useful for the other.
In my relatively educated opinion, the reason for the difference between highpower and smallbore standing is the shooting clothes used. In USA Shooting or ISSF smallbore, the clothes are reasonably flexable and allow more back bend in the standing position. Most highpower shooters use the darn hard-back shooting jackets that are more straightjacket than shooting coat...no backbend really possible, especially when the shooter cinches the straps up so tight they can barely breathe. That is the main reason that most highpower shooters have a straight up and down position.
Back in the olden days when I shot highpower for a living, I used two different sizes of shooting jackets; one for standing and one for the rest of the course. My standing jacket was a couple of sizes bigger than the prone/sitting jacket and it allowed me to adjust the straps such that I had some backbend to allow the center of gravity of my position to be over the balls of my feet. Unfortunately this size jacket was too loose in the shoulder area and I needed the smaller size to get the right shoulder fit for prone and sitting.
Eric U
Back in the olden days when I shot highpower for a living, I used two different sizes of shooting jackets; one for standing and one for the rest of the course. My standing jacket was a couple of sizes bigger than the prone/sitting jacket and it allowed me to adjust the straps such that I had some backbend to allow the center of gravity of my position to be over the balls of my feet. Unfortunately this size jacket was too loose in the shoulder area and I needed the smaller size to get the right shoulder fit for prone and sitting.
Eric U
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1813Anschutz
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I had the distinct pleasure of shooting next to you at Perry when you won the service rifle match in 1989 or 90 (don't remember which year it was) Anyway you were certainly on fire and are a gentleman to boot!
I was with the Montana team and we did not have a coach that year so I listened to YOUR coach on the team match and did whatever he told you to do. Paid off big time for me as I shot the best 600 score in my life ( I think it was a 198) you shot a 200 if I remember right and made it look SO easy!
Your coach motioned for me to come over to him and said " I need to talk to YOU' in a very stern command voice..Thinking I was in big trouble, he then said to me in his command voice " I saw what you were doing.... dropping his voice and adding a smile he then said..Nice to know that SOMEBODY else listens to me!"
You were certainly a force to reckon within high power that year and are still a force in smallbore. All of my coaching was from Lones Wigger Sr. when I shot on his smallbore team in Carter Montana.
Randy
I was with the Montana team and we did not have a coach that year so I listened to YOUR coach on the team match and did whatever he told you to do. Paid off big time for me as I shot the best 600 score in my life ( I think it was a 198) you shot a 200 if I remember right and made it look SO easy!
Your coach motioned for me to come over to him and said " I need to talk to YOU' in a very stern command voice..Thinking I was in big trouble, he then said to me in his command voice " I saw what you were doing.... dropping his voice and adding a smile he then said..Nice to know that SOMEBODY else listens to me!"
You were certainly a force to reckon within high power that year and are still a force in smallbore. All of my coaching was from Lones Wigger Sr. when I shot on his smallbore team in Carter Montana.
Randy
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bluetentacle
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nscott
For what it's worth, I also shoot a great deal of offhand practice for Nm Service Rifle. My average is about 192 with the AR, and I have shot as high as 98-2x...did so in the P100 a few weeks back. I am probably shooting virtually the same rifle and loads at the 200 yardline as you are.
Point being:
I hold a 196 average and as high as 198-6x with a smallbore rifle indoors on reduced targets. And that's with a non-"Big Three" rifle and trigger.
I don't know my 10m performance average, but I know the highest I've ever shot was 90%...
International is tough business...guess that's why I am considering starting Free Pistol for some cross-training, and why I shoot the ISSF targets in smallbore prone.
-Nate Scott
DR 1997
SR HM
Point being:
I hold a 196 average and as high as 198-6x with a smallbore rifle indoors on reduced targets. And that's with a non-"Big Three" rifle and trigger.
I don't know my 10m performance average, but I know the highest I've ever shot was 90%...
International is tough business...guess that's why I am considering starting Free Pistol for some cross-training, and why I shoot the ISSF targets in smallbore prone.
-Nate Scott
DR 1997
SR HM