I should have thought to post this earlier but, next week I will be at the 4H instructor training to become a certified pistol instructor (to certify coaches not 4H members). We also have someone going for shotgun and rifle from VA, anyone in 4H have a question you want brought up?
I personally think the 4H Pistol Book contains a lot of dialog that does not read well at all and would like a simple summary of firing distances, times, and approved targets.
None of the clubs shooting in the VA state match even shoot timed or rapid fire in air pistol and none have a team that shoots camp perry modified smallbore. So we lots of opportunity to expand.
ken
4H instructor training
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963
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Chequamegon
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:52 pm
- Location: Central Wisconsin
The training is very dependent on the instructors. Here in Wisconsin we don't learn much about the shooting, in that respect most of the training is set up for beginners. I have been certified for archery, rifle, shotgun and pistol. Pistol was the only course I took that I came out of feeling that I really learned about the sport rather the just 4H stuff. I think it was mostly due to the instructor.
4H should teach a shoot event formats because most of the events we go are so different from the last its not even funny. There needs to be a more uniform event structure. Archery is a prime example. Small bore pistol a fairly new here as youth under 18 could not shhot until a couple of years ago. Uniform distances and target styles/sizes vary from event to event.
They should just take a look at what they are doing for nationals and include that in the packet you get at the class. That would help many and event help them plan there shoots. I have to laugh when we go to a national qualifier shoot and it is set up nothing like nationals.
4H should teach a shoot event formats because most of the events we go are so different from the last its not even funny. There needs to be a more uniform event structure. Archery is a prime example. Small bore pistol a fairly new here as youth under 18 could not shhot until a couple of years ago. Uniform distances and target styles/sizes vary from event to event.
They should just take a look at what they are doing for nationals and include that in the packet you get at the class. That would help many and event help them plan there shoots. I have to laugh when we go to a national qualifier shoot and it is set up nothing like nationals.
4H instructor training
Apparently they are only supposed to teach the basic curriculum which for pistol ends with two handed seated and two handed supported. Shotgun is supposed to begin and end with one shot straight away. Apparently they don't think it's possible to teach more than that in the time allocated for the coach's training.
I filled out my comment card to the effect that I think training needs to include the 4H national competition events. It may not change anything but I tried.
PS Wisconsin cosponsored this years training with Iowa.
ken
I filled out my comment card to the effect that I think training needs to include the 4H national competition events. It may not change anything but I tried.
PS Wisconsin cosponsored this years training with Iowa.
ken
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networkguy3
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 3:57 pm
4-H training
In Kansas, there is no attempt to integrate the skills needed for Nationals in the instructor training. Kansas intends for the training to only be an introduction that allows instructors to conduct a safe class in their particular discipline and a how-to as far as teaching introductory material. I just went through the pistol class, and even though it was supposed to cover both air pistol and small bore pistol, they did not even talk about teaching a shooter to shoot one-handed. If a Kansas instructor wants to learn how to teach anything beyond the real basics, they have to get the information / skill themselves.
training
VA is set up the same, they only cover the most basic stuff which now that I understand is the program is OK other than the fact that the national curriculum is about six hours in length and VA mandates sixteen hours of training not including the "core" training in 4H policies on education, conduct, and liability. So now at least I understand why the instructor when I took the state class ran out of stuff to say by Saturday afternoon and we still had ten hours of class time.
I still think there should be some program to cover how to prepare for the events for nationals that doesn't require going to an NRA class. Although my wife went to the NRA basic pistol instructor class and reports it was not what we needed either, so I'm not really sure where the place to learn is.
I still think there should be some program to cover how to prepare for the events for nationals that doesn't require going to an NRA class. Although my wife went to the NRA basic pistol instructor class and reports it was not what we needed either, so I'm not really sure where the place to learn is.
Pat is absolutley correct ... The Level-1 coach classes are the best way to learn to teach the kids the fundamentals of competitive shooting in the specific rifle, pistol, & shotgun events. I don't know enough about the competitive archery programs here in the US to state if they have coach classes or not.
Here in NM4H it is the same in terms of
1) a "how kids learn" portion of the class which is a plug for our state director's PHD thesis (sorry .... snore)
2) a small amount of time on the safety fundamentals (which, by the way seems not to carry over very well to the kids)
3) maybe (if the weather is nice) an hour or so of shooting
I suggest to all the volunteers in our county to ONLY hit the NM training if there is nothing else to do that weekend ... prefer to steer them to a Level-1, even if they have to travel out-of-state to do it.
Cannot, flat cannot, get NM4-H to host a set of Level-1's.
For those in NM, Game & Fish, hosts and even pays for Level-1 shotgun classes here ... Call and ask for Lance Cherry or Mark Gruber... they are in the Santa Fe office/
Wm. Mark Gruber
NM Department of Game and Fish
mgruber at state.nm.us
(505) 476-8100
I would also suggest to those that get their Level-1, to go ahead and do the classes from ASEP that are required for your Level-2. These you can do from your home on your computer and are some of the best pure "coaching principles", safety, and first aid classes I've ever taken. The "Coaching Principles" is highly recommended.
Here in NM4H it is the same in terms of
1) a "how kids learn" portion of the class which is a plug for our state director's PHD thesis (sorry .... snore)
2) a small amount of time on the safety fundamentals (which, by the way seems not to carry over very well to the kids)
3) maybe (if the weather is nice) an hour or so of shooting
I suggest to all the volunteers in our county to ONLY hit the NM training if there is nothing else to do that weekend ... prefer to steer them to a Level-1, even if they have to travel out-of-state to do it.
Cannot, flat cannot, get NM4-H to host a set of Level-1's.
For those in NM, Game & Fish, hosts and even pays for Level-1 shotgun classes here ... Call and ask for Lance Cherry or Mark Gruber... they are in the Santa Fe office/
Wm. Mark Gruber
NM Department of Game and Fish
mgruber at state.nm.us
(505) 476-8100
I would also suggest to those that get their Level-1, to go ahead and do the classes from ASEP that are required for your Level-2. These you can do from your home on your computer and are some of the best pure "coaching principles", safety, and first aid classes I've ever taken. The "Coaching Principles" is highly recommended.
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Owen
Pistol Training in VA
Ken
You are correct our 4-H Pistol Training stinks on Ice. I brought in the first NRA Level 1 Pistol Coaching Program to VA through USAS as part of our PPP program on Labor Day 2005. I went to National 4-H Trainng for Pistol in 2006, it was taught by Rifle Instructors that had very little experience in pistol and no competitive experiece. You are correct after you cover the three usable lessons you are done.
In VA we fought for more time during certification weekends so that more could be taught. The problem is that we are not allowed to do so and for the most part we don't have intructors that have the knowledge to do so. Our current programs have been gutted by our state coordinator, so no quality training is possible within the program. Also when VA withdrew from the National PPP program that was another major blow to our kids training and competitvie opportunities. We used to have the largest PPP program and match structure in the country.
I have been offering upper level training in the rifle sports at the Fall Training weekend for three years now that trains adults and kids how to set up, shoot and run real matches. they have been full each year. I also have been offering a "Pairs Clinic" for rifle for almost five years now both in VA and others states as well. A pairs clinic educates a coach and a shooter together on how to shoot and coach to incluce mental training and how to properly use a shooting journal.
Over the summer I have gotten a number of requests from parents and shooters alike to put on a pairs clinic for pistol. Let me know if you are intersted.
We need to get more of our kids and parents shooting regular matches, that is the only way to get good at the sports. You only learn from folks that shoot better than you do. Remember we have an air pistol league that shoots the first Sunday of each month. We also usualy hold the only upper level air pistol and rifle matches in the state.
Remember that our 4-H Motto is supposed to be "Make the best better" Not "Make the best like all the rest". I think Joel Martin sent me this, and he is correct this seems to be a disturbing trend in VA.
Give me a call or drop me a line, you have my email.
Owen
You are correct our 4-H Pistol Training stinks on Ice. I brought in the first NRA Level 1 Pistol Coaching Program to VA through USAS as part of our PPP program on Labor Day 2005. I went to National 4-H Trainng for Pistol in 2006, it was taught by Rifle Instructors that had very little experience in pistol and no competitive experiece. You are correct after you cover the three usable lessons you are done.
In VA we fought for more time during certification weekends so that more could be taught. The problem is that we are not allowed to do so and for the most part we don't have intructors that have the knowledge to do so. Our current programs have been gutted by our state coordinator, so no quality training is possible within the program. Also when VA withdrew from the National PPP program that was another major blow to our kids training and competitvie opportunities. We used to have the largest PPP program and match structure in the country.
I have been offering upper level training in the rifle sports at the Fall Training weekend for three years now that trains adults and kids how to set up, shoot and run real matches. they have been full each year. I also have been offering a "Pairs Clinic" for rifle for almost five years now both in VA and others states as well. A pairs clinic educates a coach and a shooter together on how to shoot and coach to incluce mental training and how to properly use a shooting journal.
Over the summer I have gotten a number of requests from parents and shooters alike to put on a pairs clinic for pistol. Let me know if you are intersted.
We need to get more of our kids and parents shooting regular matches, that is the only way to get good at the sports. You only learn from folks that shoot better than you do. Remember we have an air pistol league that shoots the first Sunday of each month. We also usualy hold the only upper level air pistol and rifle matches in the state.
Remember that our 4-H Motto is supposed to be "Make the best better" Not "Make the best like all the rest". I think Joel Martin sent me this, and he is correct this seems to be a disturbing trend in VA.
Give me a call or drop me a line, you have my email.
Owen
Owen ... it's not just in VA ... it is across the country.
It is not just in shooting sports, but across all of the projects.
I try and get our 4-H ss leaders to do the level-1 we have here in NM in Sept, but that is usually the "exhausted recovery" time for the NM leaders ... right after the State Fair.
Our NM 4-H SS leader training is a mere 8-9 weeks before the state match. I've been firmly rebuffed in trying to do a level-1 rifle there.. I'd love to do a level-1 rifle, pistol, shotgun set, but it just ain't gonna happen with our current leadership.
Now when someone asks some of us "Why do we do things that way?" ... we just smile, grit our teeth, and say:
"This is 4-H"
(to those non-4Hers ... that's the name of your first 4-H project)
Poor poor cynical me
It is not just in shooting sports, but across all of the projects.
I try and get our 4-H ss leaders to do the level-1 we have here in NM in Sept, but that is usually the "exhausted recovery" time for the NM leaders ... right after the State Fair.
Our NM 4-H SS leader training is a mere 8-9 weeks before the state match. I've been firmly rebuffed in trying to do a level-1 rifle there.. I'd love to do a level-1 rifle, pistol, shotgun set, but it just ain't gonna happen with our current leadership.
Now when someone asks some of us "Why do we do things that way?" ... we just smile, grit our teeth, and say:
"This is 4-H"
(to those non-4Hers ... that's the name of your first 4-H project)
Poor poor cynical me
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Haireacane
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:07 am
4-H Training
As a 4-H State Instructor, in Georgia, I understand your frustration. Our state coordinator has given us some wiggle room. I'm our state's pistol instructor, I'm a 25 year Bullseye shooter and air pistol shooter for 15 years, and I'm the assistant rifle instructor. While we teach the pistol and rifle classes using the approved 4-H book, which has no photos or drawings of sight picture or positions, we also go above the required level. I have my level 1 NRA/CMP/USA Shooting credentials in pistol and rifle and my national certifications from 4-H in Pistol and Rifle and we take information from everything and use it in our classes. I even use District Project Achievement posters from my 4-H kids in class. We're not where we want to be but were are doing better.
We have the largest BB rifle match in the nation, 75 teams with 544 kids this year and 88 teams with more than 620 kids last year, almost a 1,000 in shotgun at our state match and we're still growing. In our BB program each of the kids has to shoot a qualification score of 310 or 1550 per team to qualify for state.
If anyone wants I'll be glad to mail you the DVD I put together for our pistol program and the CD for rifle that we give to each parent in our class. We teach three times a season with the class lasting from 8 until 10 on Friday night, 8am-10pm on Saturday and 8 until noon on Sunday. Yes, that includes overnight chaperone training and plenty of liability training.
I still coach as well. We just started back last week, our 15th season, and we will issue guns next week. We have 27 BB kids, 6 sporter air rifle and 6 in precision air pistol. I'm also the assistant coach for our high school precision air rifle team so it's a real passion to work with kids.
We do not participate in the 4-H national matches as their course of fire is not what we teach or participate in. We just go back from the Daisy Nationals in BB. We're only 2 1/2 hours from Ft. Benning and 4 1/2 from Anniston, Alabama's CMP air gun range. More than 125 high schools in Georiga have air rifle teams and their are a lot of competitions to go to.
Good Luck,
David Haire
Tift County, Georgia 4-H Shooting Sports
We have the largest BB rifle match in the nation, 75 teams with 544 kids this year and 88 teams with more than 620 kids last year, almost a 1,000 in shotgun at our state match and we're still growing. In our BB program each of the kids has to shoot a qualification score of 310 or 1550 per team to qualify for state.
If anyone wants I'll be glad to mail you the DVD I put together for our pistol program and the CD for rifle that we give to each parent in our class. We teach three times a season with the class lasting from 8 until 10 on Friday night, 8am-10pm on Saturday and 8 until noon on Sunday. Yes, that includes overnight chaperone training and plenty of liability training.
I still coach as well. We just started back last week, our 15th season, and we will issue guns next week. We have 27 BB kids, 6 sporter air rifle and 6 in precision air pistol. I'm also the assistant coach for our high school precision air rifle team so it's a real passion to work with kids.
We do not participate in the 4-H national matches as their course of fire is not what we teach or participate in. We just go back from the Daisy Nationals in BB. We're only 2 1/2 hours from Ft. Benning and 4 1/2 from Anniston, Alabama's CMP air gun range. More than 125 high schools in Georiga have air rifle teams and their are a lot of competitions to go to.
Good Luck,
David Haire
Tift County, Georgia 4-H Shooting Sports
Training DVD
Its always good to have more training information. If you could send a copy of both the rifle and pistol disks I'd appreciate it.
My mailing address is
Ken Bookmyer
259 N. River Drive
Woodstock VA 22664
We just got a new shooting club in our county the instructor moved up from Georgia, he said you've got clubs that do nothing but BB until they age out, no wonder they do so well at Nationals.
I'm not big on specializing at their age, I'd like to get my daughter to at least try shotgun and muzzleloading. Of course she's 16 already and has decided she wants to do mostly pistol.
My mailing address is
Ken Bookmyer
259 N. River Drive
Woodstock VA 22664
We just got a new shooting club in our county the instructor moved up from Georgia, he said you've got clubs that do nothing but BB until they age out, no wonder they do so well at Nationals.
I'm not big on specializing at their age, I'd like to get my daughter to at least try shotgun and muzzleloading. Of course she's 16 already and has decided she wants to do mostly pistol.
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Haireacane
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:07 am
Hi Ken,
Your CD will be mailed today. Not sure it is a case of specializing but what is available in their counties. Remember in Georgia ALL of the instructors are volunteers. I have almost 40 kids and 4 coaches including me. I cannot offer .22, or archery, we do not have volunteer coaches for those events. We do have a coach for shotgun.
I work fulltime as a Public Information Officer at our Sheriff's Office and I'm on call 24 hours a day. We would love to offer the other disciples but we have to have someone to volunteer to coach and someone who can pass a criminal background check. You would be surprised how many that will weed out. We started with BB then offered air pistol and then air rifle and we've go our hands full. So if a county only offers one discipline, and BB is very poplular as it's the least expensive that's all the kids can do. In Georgia you cannot shoot air pistol, air rifle or shotgun until the 7th grade while BB starts in the 5th grade.
Thanks,
David
Your CD will be mailed today. Not sure it is a case of specializing but what is available in their counties. Remember in Georgia ALL of the instructors are volunteers. I have almost 40 kids and 4 coaches including me. I cannot offer .22, or archery, we do not have volunteer coaches for those events. We do have a coach for shotgun.
I work fulltime as a Public Information Officer at our Sheriff's Office and I'm on call 24 hours a day. We would love to offer the other disciples but we have to have someone to volunteer to coach and someone who can pass a criminal background check. You would be surprised how many that will weed out. We started with BB then offered air pistol and then air rifle and we've go our hands full. So if a county only offers one discipline, and BB is very poplular as it's the least expensive that's all the kids can do. In Georgia you cannot shoot air pistol, air rifle or shotgun until the 7th grade while BB starts in the 5th grade.
Thanks,
David
Having Just completed the Lvl 1 coach class 9/17~18 (and with a few years experience actually helping kids before that), I thought the class failed miserably at preparing someone to be a coach. Less than 10% of the "class" focused on how to help a new shooter get started and stay motivated IMHO. There is a combination of problems, from instructor bias (I only think X and Z are important, I'll just skim over Y), to there being too much material to cover in a 2 day class, to not enough interest in the sport to make it worth changing the status quo.jhmartin wrote:Pat is absolutley correct ... The Level-1 coach classes are the best way to learn to teach the kids the fundamentals of competitive shooting in the specific rifle, pistol, & shotgun events.
My pistol class (~14 hours) spent less than 30 minutes covering position/shooting. And most of that 30 minutes was dedicated to the instructors Personal investment on a study about how wide the feet should be. I can't imagine what he left out of the rifle course taught the week before considering the much more involved positions.
Haireacane, I'm new to GA (Meriwether, CO) and just started looking at getting involved with 4H shooting only to find that there is none in any county around me (Talbot, Upson ~ I'm in Warm Springs). My wife grew up here and shot BB and Air Rifle with 4H back in the 80's. I'd love to talk with you about it if you wouldn't mind. Brian McCoy (yes, the son of Pat above) ~ brian at darladog .. com ~ mostly wondering about getting something Started and I'm hitting blank walls when calling/emailing the "official" 4H contacts. Thanks!
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76Olympian
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:36 pm
- Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Poor experience with a Level 1 Pistol Coach Cert Course
Brian, I'm sorry to hear about your poor experience with a Level 1 pistol certification course instructor. I assure you that that is not the norm and we will investigate this instructor.
If you would be willing to travel to Colorado Springs, I will waive your Level 1 Pistol Certification Course fee.
USA Shooting is hosting a Coaches College and Conference 12-20 November. The Level 1 Coach Certification Courses start on 15 November and end on 16 November. You could stay and take the ASEP course on 17 Novemeber and the first aid course (if you don't already have it) on 18 November and have the requirements for your Level 2 certification all in the same week.
Also, if you can stay over the weekend and attend the coach conference, you will have an opportunity to network with coaches across the country and pick up value information for your junior shooting program.
Regards,
Mike Theimer
michael.theimer@usashooting.org
If you would be willing to travel to Colorado Springs, I will waive your Level 1 Pistol Certification Course fee.
USA Shooting is hosting a Coaches College and Conference 12-20 November. The Level 1 Coach Certification Courses start on 15 November and end on 16 November. You could stay and take the ASEP course on 17 Novemeber and the first aid course (if you don't already have it) on 18 November and have the requirements for your Level 2 certification all in the same week.
Also, if you can stay over the weekend and attend the coach conference, you will have an opportunity to network with coaches across the country and pick up value information for your junior shooting program.
Regards,
Mike Theimer
michael.theimer@usashooting.org
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- 2011 Coach College and Conference Program Registration.pdf
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Haireacane
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:07 am
4-H
Hi Brian,
I'll be glad to speak with you about starting up a 4-H program which is what I did 15 years ago. Guess I was lucky as they were very receptive and we got up and running in just a couple of months with the BB Rifle program, then we added air pistol the next year and air rifle the third year.
You can e-mail me at david.haire@tiftcounty.org
I'm not that familiar with that part fo the state but I can find what counties near you have programs and put you in touch with the state shooting sports director who I just visited with last weekend for discipline training at the Rock Eagle 4-H camp. Our next coaches clinic is December 2-4 and this is training you must have to coach a 4-H program. The class will also be offered again February 24-26.
Good Luck,
David
I'll be glad to speak with you about starting up a 4-H program which is what I did 15 years ago. Guess I was lucky as they were very receptive and we got up and running in just a couple of months with the BB Rifle program, then we added air pistol the next year and air rifle the third year.
You can e-mail me at david.haire@tiftcounty.org
I'm not that familiar with that part fo the state but I can find what counties near you have programs and put you in touch with the state shooting sports director who I just visited with last weekend for discipline training at the Rock Eagle 4-H camp. Our next coaches clinic is December 2-4 and this is training you must have to coach a 4-H program. The class will also be offered again February 24-26.
Good Luck,
David
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GCSInc
- Posts: 246
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:49 am
- Location: The Ole Mill Range Complex, Griffin GA, USA
- Contact:
The Ole Mill Range Complex
Hi Brian,
You're practacally in my Backyard. We're in Griffin GA. The Ole Mill Range Complex, www.OleMillRangeCTC.com
We have a smallbore match Saturday. Come see our Air Pistol Range, BB, Air Rifle and Smallbore (50' and 50m) all under one roof.
Come for a tour Saturday!
Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell
You're practacally in my Backyard. We're in Griffin GA. The Ole Mill Range Complex, www.OleMillRangeCTC.com
We have a smallbore match Saturday. Come see our Air Pistol Range, BB, Air Rifle and Smallbore (50' and 50m) all under one roof.
Come for a tour Saturday!
Roy McClain
(678) 772-8185 cell
An hour drive isn't Quite "backyard", but I know you're up there... I'm actually registered for the Nov match (or at least my paperwork/check were mailed). I'm not free this weekend though, and next weekend is the Dixie Double in Anniston. Hopefully it won't be too crazy on Nov 27 (my requested day), and I can poke around some. :)
I did received your email as well.
I did received your email as well.