What auto feeder has the best trigger

[ttshooter]

I am taking a poll which auto feeder has the best trigger?
thanks

[jbshooter]

Hammerli 280.

[David M]

Hammerli 280/SP20 same trigger - fully adjustable 2 stage easy to set, holds well.
Morini - 2 stage fully adjustable sets well, you may need to play with spring sizes to make the most of weight limits. locks settings well.
Walther GSP - touchy to set fully adjustable 2 stage, varies a little with wear and dirt. Cone type adjustments a little wishy/washy.
FWB - fully adjustable, difficult to set to a crisp trigger and does not hold a fine setting.
Pardini - electronic, poor design with problems still.
Pardini - mechanical, a little rough with poor quality springs.
MG- adjustable 2 stage, easy to set.

The best, sadly, is no longer in production. The Unique DES69 and 96 trigger with the double sear system (russian design).
The reason is that the hammer sear plays no part in the trigger weight system due to the second sear.
There was no collapse or feel on the trigger on hammer release.
Very adjustable and super smooth.

[Spencer]

Given that trigger 'feel', crispness, length, reliability, etc. are extemely subjective and dependent on usage (precision, rapid fire, mix), by what criterion/criteria are YOU requesting 'best'?

[j-team]

Pardini - electronic, poor design with problems still.
Pardini - mechanical, a little rough with poor quality springs.

So, if Pardini got good triggers they might dominate the world of high level 25m shooting... Oh wait, they already do!

[PardiniUSA]

Hello ttshooter!

As with everything else the best is what serve best your goal, specifics of the event, your individual abilities (how strong you are, which construction will allow you to perform best based on your hand size, finger length etc.), money limitations and more.

Ferrari may be the best car for attracting people's attention, but worth noting if you have to use it to transport building materials for living ...

If your main interest is close to the International Rapid Fire pistol event, you definitely will have a lot of advantages by using electronic trigger. It will give you very smooth trigger pull since the friction of the sear and the hammer has no effects on the trigger(the sear is activated by the electronic unit and pulling the trigger you only work with the relatively light weight springs engaged with the two stages) you can adjust to have very short reset, you can have it as a single stage with practically no roll. The biggest advantage is the ability to do multiple dry-firings with no need to re-cock the gun. This will help you to practice the lift and the transition between the five targets and train your coordination so that you can put every single shot in the 10 ring. With the electronic trigger you will have also the benefits of shorter lock time. The problem is that you will have to spend more money ... and there are certain limitations that you have to pay attention for (oiling, cleaning, maintenance etc.)

If you are shooting Sport Pistol and/or bullseye you may be good with mechanical trigger too. But again look for a model that will allow you to have short reset and fully adjustable two stages (weight, travel etc.) trigger.

There is no question that the most complicated combination of trigger qualities and recoil recovery is in the International Rapid Fire. You have to shoot 5 shots in five different targets starting from ready position with your hand under 45 degree (not like in the bullseye aiming at the target) and you will have to shoot all in 8, 6 and 4 seconds. Because of this I believe that what is used in the Rapid Fire Pistol event can be used as a criteria for the selection of trigger for semi-automatic pistol. Here are the facts:

World Ranking 25 m Rapid Fire Pistol as of August 11th, 2011
http://www.issf-sports.org/results/worl ... linkid=201

1. Christian Reitz, Germany - Pardini SP1RF Electronic Trigger
2. Alexei Klimov, Russia - Benelli
3. Martin Podhrasky, Czech - Pardini SP1RF Electronic Trigger
4. Jian Zhang, China - Pardini SP1RF Electronic Trigger
5. Ralf Schoumann, Germany - Pardini SP1RF Electronic Trigger
6. Keith Sanderson, USA - Pardini SP1RF Electronic Trigger
7. Martin Strnad, Czech - Pardini SP1RF Electronic Trigger
8. Leonid Ekimov, Russia - Pardini SPNewRF Mechanical Trigger
9. Vijay Kumar, India - Pardini SP1RF Electronic Trigger
10. Yuehong Li, China - Pardini SPNewRF Mechanical Trigger

Nine out of 10 are using Pardini, 7 - Electronic Trigger. Furthermore 36 out of the top 40 Rapid Fire Pistol shooters in the world are shooting Pardini and mostly SP1RF Electronic Trigger.

The data for the top 80 is as follow:

Pardini - 57 (33 - Pardini SP1RF Electronic Trigger, 24 - Pardini SP Mechanical trigger)
Match Gun - 7
Tesro - 4
IZH35 - 3
Walter - 3
Benelli - 2
MTs57 - 1
HR - 1
FAS - 1
AW93 - 1


This statistics is a result of quality, innovations, ergonomics, functionality, simplicity, durability, dependability, technical support and service of the Pardini guns.

Is the new 4th generation electronic trigger that is in the Pardini SP1RF the best ever? No. But we are working for it :)

So, these are the facts. What will suit you best is another story. If you are interesed, during USA Shooting matches and the Regional's in Ft. Benning we do demonstrations and you can try the different Pardini pistols. Also if you are close to Tampa, Florida call us and visit our store. If you have any further questions you are welcome to call or email us.

Vladimir Chichkov
Pardini USA LLC
www.PardiniGuns.com
www.PardiniGuns.com/store
info@pardiniguns.com
call: 1.813.748 3378

[Popeye]

So does that mean that David's summary is very debatable, and that my GSP 2-stage trigger is not wishy/washy, variable etc - but can be seen as being most reliable and awesome because, in fact, it is the most popular, most enduring, and most well used semi-auto target pistol in the world!!?

Popeye

[TonyT]

Best is very subjective. Personally I prefer the old single stage Walther GSP trigger which is built like the proverbial tank but also shoot the Pardini SP.

[Spencer]

So does that mean that David's summary is very debatable, and that my GSP 2-stage trigger is not wishy/washy, variable etc - but can be seen as being most reliable and awesome because, in fact, it is the most popular, most enduring, and most well used semi-auto target pistol in the world!!?

Popeye

I think David was referring to the cone adjustments on the GSP trigger ("Cone type adjustments a little wishy/washy") rather than the trigger feel.

Given that David is an Olympian, and spends a lot of time adjusting triggers on many brands and types of pistols to get people out of trouble at competitions, it might be worth reading his words.

[PardiniUSA]

Walther is a nice semi-automatic pistol. Walther use to dominate the market. Some years ago (early 90ties) the company was bought by Umarex who is a leading manufacturer of toy guns, gas pistols and I believe they also have a paint ball guns. The new owner decide that it is not profitable to invest in high end competition guns. Ten years later they reconsider but they are still lagging the progress. The GSP is actually slightly modified OSP which was originally designed in the 60ies. And yes for its time it was the best rapid fire and some will say center fire pistol. But it was then... Walther came first with special dry-firing trigger which was great advantage. It was a separate trigger assembly one can install for training purposes. It was very difficult to make both triggers the same but it was great innovation. The idea is now used in the air pistols and electronic trigger modifications of almost all pistols. Walter is still a good pistol but in my opinion (not as a Pardini dealer but as a pistol coach) is not back to the same class as the Pardini, Morini, Match Gun , Tesro etc. As for the trigger , again just personal opinion) I like the OSP better than the GSP and I am sure that Walther can better on the trigger shoe.
Vladimir Chichkov
Pardini USA LLC
www.PardiniGuns.com
www.PardiniGuns.com/store
info@pardiniguns.com
call: 1.813.748 3378

[Richard H]

Umarex makes more than toy guns, they make their money from the defense and law enforcement business. Which dwarfs the target market.

The GSP is long in the tooth but aside from your electronic trigger what earth shattering innovations are there in your pistols. (this wasn't meant as a criticism, but what makes yours uniquely different than the GSP)

Then there is the SSP which you neglect to mention (which also has an electronic trigger variant).

[PardiniUSA]

Hello Richard!

Anyone who can afford to buy a company as Walther is BIG. And this is exactly where my frustration comes from. It was much easy for a giant as Umarex to spend some money for research and development in the competition section, but no, they went for the profit and cut the sport out. Now they see that it was a mistake and try to catch up. Same happened with Hammerli ... through the hands of Sig and Walther to Umarex. And from there - nowhere ... Why you will buy something good just to close it and kill a legend ... Just so that you do not have competition ??? ...

No, I don't like the SSP and I find the OSP and the GSP better. Again this is just my opinion but SSP is very complicated gun, I had problems securing the trigger adjustments, I don't like the way the brass is extracted (they can fly everywhere including across the aiming line which is undesirable for Rapid Fire shooting and make the gun unsuitable for bullseye shooting with red dot scopes). The only things that are better is the look and the balance. Again this is just a personal opinion.

And now about what are the key features of the Pardini Pistols.

1. The barrel housing contains a special active counterweight compensator. This is a system of six counterweights and springs which reduce the recoil and helps you to recover it. One can chose between steel and tungsten (carbide) counter weights and can play with the number of weights used and their location (Top, middle, bottom).

2. The bolt has integrated shock absorber. It is a piston, that absorb the energy when the bolt hits the frame after the shot. As a result you have the effect of the recoil sprig added to this of the shock absorber. This again reduces the recoil and makes the recovery easier, which is key if you have to do multiple shots in a short time.

3. We do have different bolts so that you can gain based on the event that you are shooting. The rapid fire bolt is much lighter and this ensures faster cycling and less energy of the moving backwards bolt (yes again the goal is less recoil and faster recovery)

4. The inside of the Rapid Fire barrel has different shape. There is approximately 10 mm transition between the chamber and the rifling. This slower the velocity of the bullet and gives less recoil as well.

5. If you look the profile of Pardini pistols inside the hand you will see that it stays very low (actually the lowest on the market) which makes the distance between the barrel center line and the arm to be very small. This reduce the leverage that the recoil has and results in a less movement. It may look simple but it is not if you have to keep the ergonomics and not disturb the trigger pull.

6. The construction of our pistols is very simple and allows very quick (just one screw) conversion between 32 and 22. The aligning system Pardini uses guarantee that the zero is the same when you take the gun apart to clean it or convert it.

7. One can attach the scope directly on the frame of the pistol and it will stay there if you disassemble to clean and or to convert 32 to 22.

8. Pardini offers a choice between 32 S&W Long (great for 25 m but very problematic when used at 50 yards for the NRA events) and 32ACP (the tests conducted in Ft. Benning with developed loads for our gun shows 7/8 of inch group)

9. We design our pistols and modifications in a way so that when we come with something new, those who have older version to be able to convert to the new model and not buy a new gun. For example the new electronic trigger concept can be installed on the older SP1. To make it easier the price of the whole conversion is pretty much same as the price of a replacement electronic unit. Another example is the beginners air pistol KID (extremely light, very well balanced for kids, ambidextrous grip specially designed to fit young kid's hand and small fingers). The KID has the same frame and trigger mechanism as the K10. So the kids does not have to buy a new pistol when they grow up, but same as with the lego they can replace grip, barrel, air cylinder, or whatever they need to upgrade. Yes, if you buy the KID and all the parts to upgrade to the K10 you will spend about a 100 - 150 dollars more than the cost of K10 but for this price you will not overwork the kid with heavy and disproportional pistol. In the same time you will not compromise the quality of the pistol and the trigger just because this if for kids.
And these are just some and only outside thinks.

I am sorry if this sounds as advertisement it was not the purpose. I was disagree with David's statement, which was misleading for the quality of the Pardini pistols. I know that there will be better solutions and hope that in competition with the other brands we will be able to deliver better product. My point was that for the last 15 years Pardini dominates the Rapid Fire Pistol shooting which tells that in the moment Pardini is the best semiautomatic competition gun on the market. Saying this I would like to point that everyone has to choose for himself, because may be different pistol can fit him better.

Vladimir Chichkov

Pardini USA LLC
www.PardiniGuns.com
www.PardiniGuns.com/store
info@pardiniguns.com
call: 1.813.748 3378

[David Levene]

6. The construction of our pistols is very simple and allows very quick (just one screw) conversion between 32 and 22. The aligning system Pardini uses guarantee that the zero is the same when you take the gun apart to clean it or convert it.

7. One can attach the scope directly on the frame of the pistol and it will stay there if you disassemble to clean and or to convert 32 to 22.

Out of interest, why isn't this conversion kit mentioned on your web site; or have I missed it.

[Richard H]

Yes I've never seen anyone with a conversion kit either.

I guess the Steyr LP10 is better than Pardini air pistols, using that marketing logic.

[David M]

The ideal pistol, take the Pardini frame (improve the metallurgy with good quality German steel), fit a descent set of American Wolf springs to it. Fitted with a Morini electronic trigger unit for reliability and battery life. Add a K&N quality grip to it, and give it the function, accuracy and reliability of a old Sig/Hammerli.
You can use your favourite set of sights as well.
Self re-filling endless magazines would be wishfull thinking, but nice.

[PardiniUSA]

Guys, here are the illustrations for what the Active Couther-Weight Compensator looks like.

Vladimir Chichkov
Pardini USA LLC
www.PardiniGuns.com
www.PardiniGuns.com/store
info@pardiniguns.com
call: 1.813.748 3378

[PardiniUSA]

Guys, here are the steps to convert the Pardini HP Caliber 32 ACP to 22LR.

Step 1. Take the .32 caliber magazine out.
Step 2. Make sure the gun is empty.
Step 3. Unscrew the Counter-Weights Ries Locking Screw.
Step 4. Remove the .32 caliber Barrel Assembly.
Step 5. Remove the .32 caliber Bolt and the Recoil Spring with the Guiding Rod. Based on the ammunition you may need to use different spring.
Step 6. Install the .22LR Bolt and the Recoil Spring with the guiding rod.
Step 7. Install the .22LR Barrel.
Step 8. Make sure you re-tight the Counter-Weights Ries Locking Screw.
Step 9. Insert the .22LR Magazine.


The same think can be done to switch 32S&W long (Wad Cuter) to 32ACP and 22LR. Same magazine is used for for both 32 caliber ammunition

You will be able to chamber 32 ACP in a 32 S&W barrel but it is not recommended from safety and accuracy point of view. When converting from 32 to 22 based on the 22 ammunition you may need to replace the recoil spring as well. Other then this it takes seconds to do the conversion. Again the fact that you take a barrel off and on will not change the zero. Of course you will have difference in the zero between 22 and 32, or between 25 and 50 yards and you will have to do the corrections but they will be the same every time.


Vladimir Chichkov
Pardini USA LLC
www.PardiniGuns.com
www.PardiniGuns.com/store
info@pardiniguns.com
call: 1.813.748 3378

[PardiniUSA]

Here is picture with the three different models of the 22 bolt. The rapid fire is the lightest one with the main goal is to ensure foster cycling and les recoil. The conversion 22 is the heaviest. The conversion model is designed mainly for the US market and the bullseye event. The idea is to use one gun with same trigger and same scope and shoot the 22 and the center fire portion of the match. Since the slow fire is at 50 yard distance the heavy bolt is beneficial for better ballistics in a blow back guns.

The second image shows the position of the shock absorber.

Vladimir Chichkov
Pardini USA LLC
www.PardiniGuns.com
www.PardiniGuns.com/store
info@pardiniguns.com
call: 1.813.748 3378

[PardiniUSA]

6. The construction of our pistols is very simple and allows very quick (just one screw) conversion between 32 and 22. The aligning system Pardini uses guarantee that the zero is the same when you take the gun apart to clean it or convert it.

7. One can attach the scope directly on the frame of the pistol and it will stay there if you disassemble to clean and or to convert 32 to 22.

Out of interest, why isn't this conversion kit mentioned on your web site; or have I missed it.

No David, you didn't miss it. We have to put it but ... I wish I could do better and not look the computer as a type-writer ... I am working on it :)

[PardiniUSA]

Yes I've never seen anyone with a conversion kit either.

I guess the Steyr LP10 is better than Pardini air pistols, using that marketing logic.

Hi Richard!

The 32 ACP and the 22LR conversion was initiated by Pardini USA in 2009 and started as a project specifically for the American marked. The goal was to address the needs of the bullseye shooters.

We were demonstrating the gun in Camp Perry in 2010 and this year as well.

Last year John Ennis was shooting the Pardini 32 ACP with 22 conversion. He won the center fire match. This year in Perry Emil Milev used 32 ACP - 22 conversion in his debut at 2700. He was shooting iron sights and placed 4th overall in the center fire match and won the rapid fire portion. I know that we have to do better job for informing the shooters what we have and I hope that with these posts I am doing progress :)

And, yes, we listen to any critics, suggestions, problems and needs of the shooter so that we can address them. Our pistols wouldn't be what they are without the help of all who are shooting them. Help that we appreciate VERY MUCH!

About your second statement - yes, Steyr is dominating the Air Pistol event same as Morini is doing it at the Free pistol and Pardini in Rapid Fire and Sport. But again you will see different guns at the firing line because of the personal preferences. The competition between the brands is what gives us better guns. You can trust me, we work hard to catch up with them and make even better guns :)