Hello, Ive been a lurker here for a little bit and trying to learn up as much as I can on smallbore. I recently joined a club and after a little bit of fundamentals, and fumbling with club rifles, Im looking to buy my own.
I notice the others in the club
(much younger than me) already have high dollar aluminum rifles.. Since I just cant afford that right now let alone even know where to begin, Id like to pick up a used wood stock Anschutz. Im looking at a 1903 for about 800 and an 1807 for about 1100.. Since this is going to be my first rifle, should I spring for the 1807? The smith/shop owner says the 1807 has the action Im looking for while the 1903 has a less upgradeable one. So far what Im hearing about both is that the 1903 has a custom upgraded buttplate, while the 1807 has a really good bore and action, with fair to good stock and is comparable to an early 1907. And I've no idea if theyre good prices or not. Eitherway, I can swing the cost of either. I have already budgeted a few hundred for other things like coat, sling, glove, ammo, etc...
What do you think?
Picking up first rifle for 3P
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
A few other pieces of information that would be helpful are how big are you? Have you quit growing? Are you shooting at 50ft and 50 yards or will you be out at 100 yards? Male/Female?
First, the 1807 is built with the Match 54 action which is the main action that Anschutz built their reputation on. The 1903 is the lighter Mark 64 action that was really intended for the "my first target rifle" applications. In terms of accuracy the 1807 will be more accurate. For anything out to 50 yards the 1807 won't have too much of an advantage, when you get to 100 yards the 1807 will eat the 1903 alive.
Now, assuming you are just getting going and doing everything at 50ft/yds the next question, about size, if you are around 6ft and 190 pounds (for instance) you would likely find the 1903 too light, go with the 1807. Say you are 5'3" and 105 pounds the lighter 1903 (by about a pound) would be more appropriate for getting going. This is not to say that a small person cannot handle the 1807 as at the top levels the women shoot 5.5kg (~12 lb) rifles but for just getting going the lighter 1903 is a better fit for a smaller person.
Overall, with sights, both prices are fair. You mentioned an aftermarket buttplate on the 1903 I get a little concerned when people start adding aftermarket "upgraded" buttplates to the classic standard rifle stock. Without seeing the installation I usually interpret this as someone having added a hook. While this is perceived as an upgrade often the hooks will not go low enough to achieve a truly relaxed offhand position.
Depending on where you go with it, later, should you start to fancy one of those aluminum stocks you can drop the barreled action from the 1807 into a number of different aluminum stocks. Now you have to order the stock set up for the Match 54 action but it would bolt right in. Getting a 1903 barreled action into an aluminum stock would be much more difficult, not to mention that such a project just would not make any sense.
My 2 cents on the topic
'Dude
First, the 1807 is built with the Match 54 action which is the main action that Anschutz built their reputation on. The 1903 is the lighter Mark 64 action that was really intended for the "my first target rifle" applications. In terms of accuracy the 1807 will be more accurate. For anything out to 50 yards the 1807 won't have too much of an advantage, when you get to 100 yards the 1807 will eat the 1903 alive.
Now, assuming you are just getting going and doing everything at 50ft/yds the next question, about size, if you are around 6ft and 190 pounds (for instance) you would likely find the 1903 too light, go with the 1807. Say you are 5'3" and 105 pounds the lighter 1903 (by about a pound) would be more appropriate for getting going. This is not to say that a small person cannot handle the 1807 as at the top levels the women shoot 5.5kg (~12 lb) rifles but for just getting going the lighter 1903 is a better fit for a smaller person.
Overall, with sights, both prices are fair. You mentioned an aftermarket buttplate on the 1903 I get a little concerned when people start adding aftermarket "upgraded" buttplates to the classic standard rifle stock. Without seeing the installation I usually interpret this as someone having added a hook. While this is perceived as an upgrade often the hooks will not go low enough to achieve a truly relaxed offhand position.
Depending on where you go with it, later, should you start to fancy one of those aluminum stocks you can drop the barreled action from the 1807 into a number of different aluminum stocks. Now you have to order the stock set up for the Match 54 action but it would bolt right in. Getting a 1903 barreled action into an aluminum stock would be much more difficult, not to mention that such a project just would not make any sense.
My 2 cents on the topic
'Dude
Thanks 'dude! your reply confirms my gut feeling about the 2.
I'm 5'7", yes I'm done growing :) and mainly 50M I think. Male, with slim to medium build.
So I went up to the shop yesterday and got a chance to see and hold both. Ive picked up both, and theyre both very comfortable with my cheek resting right on the cheekpiece without having to crank my head anywhere.
The 1903 has what looks like a solid hook, with only adjustments being up/down and LOP. The 1807 has a shimmable plate, with a curved rubber pad that can slide up for prone and all the way down for standing.. Im assuming Id have to replace this with a hook eventually. Looks identical to this one:
The trigger felt VERY nice on the 1807, and there was no overtravel whatsoever. I had no idea a trigger could be so light! The 1903 had more overtravel and I figured it needed more adjusting.
The bore on both looked good through a borescope, with the 1807 looking really good considering its age. The 1807 looked good internally, but had a little tiny bit of pitting on the outside of the receiver and it looked like it may have been saved from neglect in the nick of time. The 1903 looked pretty new with regular looking wear.
Anyways, it looks there's no question as to which one would be better, especially knowing the 1807 can accept a newer stock.
Anyways I'll update with what I decide to do. Thanks!!
I'm 5'7", yes I'm done growing :) and mainly 50M I think. Male, with slim to medium build.
So I went up to the shop yesterday and got a chance to see and hold both. Ive picked up both, and theyre both very comfortable with my cheek resting right on the cheekpiece without having to crank my head anywhere.
The 1903 has what looks like a solid hook, with only adjustments being up/down and LOP. The 1807 has a shimmable plate, with a curved rubber pad that can slide up for prone and all the way down for standing.. Im assuming Id have to replace this with a hook eventually. Looks identical to this one:
The trigger felt VERY nice on the 1807, and there was no overtravel whatsoever. I had no idea a trigger could be so light! The 1903 had more overtravel and I figured it needed more adjusting.
The bore on both looked good through a borescope, with the 1807 looking really good considering its age. The 1807 looked good internally, but had a little tiny bit of pitting on the outside of the receiver and it looked like it may have been saved from neglect in the nick of time. The 1903 looked pretty new with regular looking wear.
Anyways, it looks there's no question as to which one would be better, especially knowing the 1807 can accept a newer stock.
Anyways I'll update with what I decide to do. Thanks!!
I'm with justadude. You don't need the super-lightweight one at your size, and the other is much more upgradeable (plus the better trigger is a huge advantage especially 3P).
My daughter shoots with an 1807 barrel in a replacement modern free rifle stock (and just won her first international medal with it. Proud mum moment.) She's a couple of inches shorter than you.
Don't worry about not being able to afford the latest and shiniest. Technique is much, much more important.
My daughter shoots with an 1807 barrel in a replacement modern free rifle stock (and just won her first international medal with it. Proud mum moment.) She's a couple of inches shorter than you.
Don't worry about not being able to afford the latest and shiniest. Technique is much, much more important.
adrian,
At 5'7" and medium build the basic 1807 stock should be pretty much perfect for you.
As you have noted, the adjustments available on the 1807 are modest but very servicable. The heavier trigger on the 1903 is with good reason: For a new shooter it takes some time and training to get the light 2 stage triggers under control, in fact without being careful and concentrating on developing good technique those super light triggers can lead to an execution error called "snap shooting", something of a refined form of jerking the trigger, so be careful of that as you start settling in.
Next, you mentioned
Consider that the rules for the Air Rifle (which does not allow hooks) descended from the blueprint for rifles like the 1807 and the Air Rifle folks tend to shoot some exceptional scores, clearly the lack of a hook is not holding them back.
Where I am going with all of this, after you have shot the 1807 for a while and figure that you really want to have a hook, just get a new stock, with all the adjustments... and a hook... setup for the Match 54 action, bolt yours in, move forward and be a happy.
Good Luck as you upgrade!!!
'Dude
At 5'7" and medium build the basic 1807 stock should be pretty much perfect for you.
As you have noted, the adjustments available on the 1807 are modest but very servicable. The heavier trigger on the 1903 is with good reason: For a new shooter it takes some time and training to get the light 2 stage triggers under control, in fact without being careful and concentrating on developing good technique those super light triggers can lead to an execution error called "snap shooting", something of a refined form of jerking the trigger, so be careful of that as you start settling in.
Next, you mentioned
If you really feel you must add a hook, go ahead, BUT for the most common hooks that are added to standard rifles there is not enough drop available in the butt stock to achieve proper geometries between the shoulder and cheekpiece. This goes back to my earlier statement aboutIm assuming Id have to replace this with a hook eventually.
The MEC Free Position and the Tech-HRO butt plates would be exceptions, they are quite expensive and then you need to cut so much off the back of the stock to get the LOP down to something human that you have butchered the stock. Just about destroying any resale value should you wish to do so at some time in the future. (Unless you sold the hook with the rifle.)I get a little concerned when people start adding aftermarket "upgraded" buttplates to the classic standard rifle stock. Without seeing the installation I usually interpret this as someone having added a hook. While this is perceived as an upgrade often the hooks will not go low enough to achieve a truly relaxed offhand position.
Consider that the rules for the Air Rifle (which does not allow hooks) descended from the blueprint for rifles like the 1807 and the Air Rifle folks tend to shoot some exceptional scores, clearly the lack of a hook is not holding them back.
Where I am going with all of this, after you have shot the 1807 for a while and figure that you really want to have a hook, just get a new stock, with all the adjustments... and a hook... setup for the Match 54 action, bolt yours in, move forward and be a happy.
Good Luck as you upgrade!!!
'Dude
1807
I agree with Dude on getting the 1807 and the price seems really good if it comes with sights. As far as adding a hook, I had no problem slapping an ESP hook ($195) on my 1907 and it is more adjustment than you will ever need. I even like it more than the MEC hook on my 1913. The stock may be a little different on the 1807 but it shouldn't be too hard to install one. I shoot more air rifle but I do think a hook on a standard rifle has its advantages but can be too much to mess with and get setup when you are first starting.
good luck!
good luck!
I went ahead and placed the order on the rifle yesterday, so I should be able to pick it up in 10 days. :)
Sounds really good about the ability to upgrade stocks. That is pretty much a bonus I had not anticipated at all. And the reason I went ahead and did it. From the looks of things it seems I'll get pretty good mileage out of this barreled action. The cash outlay doing it this way does not seem bad at all. That is unless I am a completely horrible shot, or I somehow uncover superhuman skills.
thanks 'dude and thanks all. I'm glad I stumbled upon this forum. Been a big help.
A
Sounds really good about the ability to upgrade stocks. That is pretty much a bonus I had not anticipated at all. And the reason I went ahead and did it. From the looks of things it seems I'll get pretty good mileage out of this barreled action. The cash outlay doing it this way does not seem bad at all. That is unless I am a completely horrible shot, or I somehow uncover superhuman skills.
thanks 'dude and thanks all. I'm glad I stumbled upon this forum. Been a big help.
A
Not to divert your thread, but if you go the ESP butt hook route, I would advise against using the ESP hook carrier. I have two of them, both came as stock with my Gen. I MWerks stock. New out of the box they wobble due to a design defect. The actual hook is OK, but pony up the extra money for an actual Anschutz carrier. The MWerks stock is nice, and it's maker is not to blame. Enjoy the new toy. Anschutz, the gateway drug to serious addiction.
xnoncents: Thanks for the tip about using the Anschutz carrier with the esp hook. I can't find images anywhere for the hook or info about Earnest Shooting Products. Seeing that I have the 1807 stock that has a slant cut butt, it appears Im limited unless I modify(cut) the stock, which is something I'll probably avoid. Justadude's comment about just getting a new stock altogether seemed like a good route to take.
all: Only thinking ahead. Been searching for info on the 1800 series barreled action, and the only difference Ive found between that and a 1900 series is the front dovetail on the barrel. If this is correct then my 1807 should fit any modern free rifle stock that fits the 1900, right? Can anyone confirm or am I way off.
all: Only thinking ahead. Been searching for info on the 1800 series barreled action, and the only difference Ive found between that and a 1900 series is the front dovetail on the barrel. If this is correct then my 1807 should fit any modern free rifle stock that fits the 1900, right? Can anyone confirm or am I way off.
the front sight base is the only difference to my knowledge as well. as for problems with the ESP hook, i don't have any issues with mine and can't see how it would move. the design is very similar to my MEC plate and hook as well. anyway, I would be interested in hearing if others are having an issue with ESP as well?
as for finding it on the web, you wont. Bill is an old fashioned guy that does not do computers. you can call and leave him a msg and get one of his product sheets sent to you with prices. you then have to call and order and send him a check.
even if the buttstock is slanted, i would think you would be able to install a hook somehow but maybe not. keep in mind that it may be cheaper in the long run to sell your 1807 and add that money to another used gun with the stock you want or take your time and find a used stock. i say this because new stocks are frequently half the cost of a new rifle which is $1000 to $2000. you will just have to weigh all your options. i have seen quite a few 18,19,and 20 series rifles with sights over the last year for $1500-$2000. to get one in the $1500 range in great condition, you just have to have the money on hand, be patient, always on the lookout and buy it right when you see it because they go in a matter of hours
as for finding it on the web, you wont. Bill is an old fashioned guy that does not do computers. you can call and leave him a msg and get one of his product sheets sent to you with prices. you then have to call and order and send him a check.
even if the buttstock is slanted, i would think you would be able to install a hook somehow but maybe not. keep in mind that it may be cheaper in the long run to sell your 1807 and add that money to another used gun with the stock you want or take your time and find a used stock. i say this because new stocks are frequently half the cost of a new rifle which is $1000 to $2000. you will just have to weigh all your options. i have seen quite a few 18,19,and 20 series rifles with sights over the last year for $1500-$2000. to get one in the $1500 range in great condition, you just have to have the money on hand, be patient, always on the lookout and buy it right when you see it because they go in a matter of hours
Externally the big difference between the 18xx and 19xx is the dovetail on the barrel.
From early to late 18xx there are some internal differences to the bolt but nothing that is likely to make any difference to the average user.
All 14xx, 18xx and 19xx (and some people call the 14xx with serial numbers that end in X a 16xx) are based on the Match 54 action. This is the cylindrical action, not to be confused with the 20xx action which looks more like a small metallic brick. Any 14xx, 18xx or 19xx will bolt into a stock inletted for the Match 54 action, they are all interchangable in that regard. Receiver diameters are the same, bedding screw centers are the same.
'Dude
From early to late 18xx there are some internal differences to the bolt but nothing that is likely to make any difference to the average user.
All 14xx, 18xx and 19xx (and some people call the 14xx with serial numbers that end in X a 16xx) are based on the Match 54 action. This is the cylindrical action, not to be confused with the 20xx action which looks more like a small metallic brick. Any 14xx, 18xx or 19xx will bolt into a stock inletted for the Match 54 action, they are all interchangable in that regard. Receiver diameters are the same, bedding screw centers are the same.
'Dude
USMC0802, My problem with ESP was not with the hook. The hook is solid, well engineered and flexibly functional. The carrier for the hook which attaches it to the stock has a lot of wobble. His design is different from Anschutz, in that he does not tie the two pivoting legs of the carrier together with the flat base section using hex screws, but rather pins them with some sort of driven pin. The play in the pin system allows not just up down movement, but side to side as well. Not good. I have two of them with the identical problem. MWerks used them as sole supplier in their initial run of Gen. I stocks, and Jeff informs me that I am not the only one to raise this issue. He told me he has contacted ESP and asked them to correct this deficiency, but has never gotten any traction. As a result he no longer uses ESP as a vendor. (If you have specific questions pm me, or we can start another thread. I'll be glad to answer. I just don't want to further hijack the o.p.)
I also, additionally have the MEC hook. Roughly similar to ESP, but, MEC is more comfortable (IMO) and grippier (the dots), LOP is a tiny bit longer. MEC is significantly more adjustable, a little less robust, and way more expensive.
I also, additionally have the MEC hook. Roughly similar to ESP, but, MEC is more comfortable (IMO) and grippier (the dots), LOP is a tiny bit longer. MEC is significantly more adjustable, a little less robust, and way more expensive.