We would like your opinion regarding the possible introduction of a new smallbore match rifle in the U.S. What is the most you would spend on a premium smallbore match rifle with the following attributes:
• New action design offering superior accuracy and reduced group size
• Improved trigger and faster lock time over similar rifles on the market
• Premium hand-lapped stainless steel barrel
• Improved stock adjustability and improved shooter fit
• CNC machined for improved tolerances, fit and appearance
• Scope mount designed to maximize accuracy and require minimal adjustment when removed and reinstalled on rifle
• Sights, sight extension tube and scope mount included with rifle
New Rifle Poll
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
New Rifle Poll
Your voting is a big help! Please keep it up.
Thanks!
Thanks!
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Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
I'll pay whatever's needed to get the gun I want. It's a big enough purchase that I couldn't argue over the margins involved really. If I think the gun will give me a significant advantage, I'll buy it. Now, you're looking at this from a marketing perspective obviously based on your list of offered features, and I'm not looking at it like that for you, but as a generality. If I want it, I'll get it and certainly won't compromise on the rifle. Doesn't matter what features it does or doesn't have if I can't shoot well with it. If I can though, it doesn't matter what it costs.
New Rifle Poll
Hi Guys:
The new ahg Anschutz F27A Challenger is $4950. The 2013 Anschutz in the Precise stock is $3725. The good Anschutz sights are about $500. (Champions Choice price today). If you look at the Swiss rifles, Tanner, Grunig or Bielker they are pushing $8500.
It costs a lot to build a limited run high quality rifle. Your input is a real help with this project. Thanks again!
The new ahg Anschutz F27A Challenger is $4950. The 2013 Anschutz in the Precise stock is $3725. The good Anschutz sights are about $500. (Champions Choice price today). If you look at the Swiss rifles, Tanner, Grunig or Bielker they are pushing $8500.
It costs a lot to build a limited run high quality rifle. Your input is a real help with this project. Thanks again!
Trouble is some people think they can buy scores, sometimes it's better to stand back and say what I've got is good enough, I just need to work on my technique/position/reading the wind etc etc.
This often gets better scores than swapping and changing all the time thinking if I get the latest whatever my scores are bound to go up.
I'm not saying don't buy anything, but think long and hard before you buy something because so and so uses it, so it must be good.Colin
This often gets better scores than swapping and changing all the time thinking if I get the latest whatever my scores are bound to go up.
I'm not saying don't buy anything, but think long and hard before you buy something because so and so uses it, so it must be good.Colin
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WesternGrizzly
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:43 pm
Rifle Poll
Thanks for the feedback! Please keep the votes coming in.
THANKS!!
THANKS!!
I am currently shooting only prone and my rifle is such a mutt (Anschutz 54 based) that I have lost accounting for what I have paid for it over the years. All summed up and adjusted for inflation I would not be surprised to see a number in the $5k-$6k ballpark. I would be a little stunned if it were past $6k but go back to the part about being a mutt. I am playing with the idea of a different stock which will likely get me within sniffing distance of $8k
The difference here is that I did it $500 here, $250 there, $1000 over there so financially it was easier to get that much sunk into it.
If I had to explain to my wife that I just dropped $8500 on a rifle the next thing I could do is explain to my mother why my wife is filing for divorce. As nice as it might be, in the grand scheme of the household finances an $8500 rifle would not fly. With some explaination and warning $5000 in a single purchase could probably be negotiated.
Now, get to the explaination:I am not going to argue that the Match 54 action I have is the best action on the planet, it is not. However with some work the lock time, trigger and accuracy is fine. For my front line barrelled action, tuned and matched to a lot of ammo I get 30 caliber hole 5 shot groups and "38" caliber (actually 357) 10 shot groups (50m). For prone, lock time is not too important. For me, the first three bullet items on this wonder rifle are un-important. Discussions about CNC machining and fancy scope mount are also un-important.
Included sights and tuner tube are interesting but I already have some sights I trust and tuner tubes are not all that expensive. Interesting points but not compelling.
The only bullet point that is really of interest is the 4th one; Improved adjustability. My present prone stock is about a 1980 Anschutz xx13 wood stock. I can see that it is limited compared to the new stuff and I will admit I have trouble getting the cheek piece really "right". Is there something about the stock design on this new rifle that is so revolutionary that it is not available in another aftermarket stock or as just a stock for my Match 54 Barreled action? If the answer to that question is "yes" then, with the right alignment of the stars then I might be interested. At the same time Sergei Martynov and Eric Uptagrafft both shoot wood xx13 stocks so perhaps I should not be too hasty. (From what I can see Sergei shoots a Match 54 action as well.)
While this discussion might be nice and new hardware is always fun to test, at the same time I can buy lots of training ammo for even the lower $4500 bracket and that might be money better spent because as Colin points out, you can't buy scores.
OK my 2 cents, well this looks more like a 25 cent reply.
Cheers
'Dude
The difference here is that I did it $500 here, $250 there, $1000 over there so financially it was easier to get that much sunk into it.
If I had to explain to my wife that I just dropped $8500 on a rifle the next thing I could do is explain to my mother why my wife is filing for divorce. As nice as it might be, in the grand scheme of the household finances an $8500 rifle would not fly. With some explaination and warning $5000 in a single purchase could probably be negotiated.
Now, get to the explaination:I am not going to argue that the Match 54 action I have is the best action on the planet, it is not. However with some work the lock time, trigger and accuracy is fine. For my front line barrelled action, tuned and matched to a lot of ammo I get 30 caliber hole 5 shot groups and "38" caliber (actually 357) 10 shot groups (50m). For prone, lock time is not too important. For me, the first three bullet items on this wonder rifle are un-important. Discussions about CNC machining and fancy scope mount are also un-important.
Included sights and tuner tube are interesting but I already have some sights I trust and tuner tubes are not all that expensive. Interesting points but not compelling.
The only bullet point that is really of interest is the 4th one; Improved adjustability. My present prone stock is about a 1980 Anschutz xx13 wood stock. I can see that it is limited compared to the new stuff and I will admit I have trouble getting the cheek piece really "right". Is there something about the stock design on this new rifle that is so revolutionary that it is not available in another aftermarket stock or as just a stock for my Match 54 Barreled action? If the answer to that question is "yes" then, with the right alignment of the stars then I might be interested. At the same time Sergei Martynov and Eric Uptagrafft both shoot wood xx13 stocks so perhaps I should not be too hasty. (From what I can see Sergei shoots a Match 54 action as well.)
While this discussion might be nice and new hardware is always fun to test, at the same time I can buy lots of training ammo for even the lower $4500 bracket and that might be money better spent because as Colin points out, you can't buy scores.
OK my 2 cents, well this looks more like a 25 cent reply.
Cheers
'Dude
Last edited by justadude on Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rifle Poll
Thank you for sharing your well thought out comments. They are well taken. Affordability is always an issue, but advancement has its costs.
No one who is serious about their smallbore shooting can say with a straight face that this is not an equipment intensive (read: expensive) sport. Once you have the rifle you need a few thousand more for jackets, pants, boots, slings etc etc etc.
You mention that advancement has its costs, absolutely! This is why I am considering an aftermarket aluminum stock to update my wooden stock. This is advancement on a budget. : )
What is missing in your description is hard numbers to go with your bullet points. No one selling target rifles is going to say "I have developed a new target rifle that has a sloppy trigger, slower lock time and is less accurate and less adjustable but to make you feel better we throw in the sights.
I am sure you realize that some of the prices in your upper range are going to be a hard sell for most. Pretend for a moment I had $8.5k I could use for shooting equipement. Do I spend it all on your rifle or do I update my stock and have enough left over for new custom jacket, pants, boots and one of the new MEC slings I have been hearing about? If I am careful I might even have enough left for a case of training ammo.
Bottom line here, starting from scratch a top end Anschutz of some flavor is going to be $4k+ possibly near $5k by the time it is ready to shoot. While for the right rifle I don't think you would have to match that you would need to be price competive say $5k to $6k to get any real market penetration, or enough penetration in a limited US market to likely get a return on time invested. (That is just my personal opinion there.)
What I would really like is a "range day" where I could sign up to "test shoot" the latest Anschutz, Walther, Feinwerkbau, Bleiker, G&E, Tanner and Maennel all in one afternoon. Then I might find an excuse to start negotiating with my wife about parting with some really large sums of money.
Just few more thoughts as you do your market analysis.
'Dude
You mention that advancement has its costs, absolutely! This is why I am considering an aftermarket aluminum stock to update my wooden stock. This is advancement on a budget. : )
What is missing in your description is hard numbers to go with your bullet points. No one selling target rifles is going to say "I have developed a new target rifle that has a sloppy trigger, slower lock time and is less accurate and less adjustable but to make you feel better we throw in the sights.
I am sure you realize that some of the prices in your upper range are going to be a hard sell for most. Pretend for a moment I had $8.5k I could use for shooting equipement. Do I spend it all on your rifle or do I update my stock and have enough left over for new custom jacket, pants, boots and one of the new MEC slings I have been hearing about? If I am careful I might even have enough left for a case of training ammo.
Bottom line here, starting from scratch a top end Anschutz of some flavor is going to be $4k+ possibly near $5k by the time it is ready to shoot. While for the right rifle I don't think you would have to match that you would need to be price competive say $5k to $6k to get any real market penetration, or enough penetration in a limited US market to likely get a return on time invested. (That is just my personal opinion there.)
What I would really like is a "range day" where I could sign up to "test shoot" the latest Anschutz, Walther, Feinwerkbau, Bleiker, G&E, Tanner and Maennel all in one afternoon. Then I might find an excuse to start negotiating with my wife about parting with some really large sums of money.
Just few more thoughts as you do your market analysis.
'Dude
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bill guinn
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:39 pm
better than what?
Before I vote I'd need to know how much better. Better than a Bleiker, the new G&E Racer? Or better than a Anschutz in the Precise stock? Is it as easy to load in position as a Racer? Are the barrels easily replaced?
How consistent is the trigger?
Your question is like asking how much more would I pay for a car? Better than a Chevy Malibu or a Porsche GT3RS 4.0?
How consistent is the trigger?
Your question is like asking how much more would I pay for a car? Better than a Chevy Malibu or a Porsche GT3RS 4.0?
New Rifle Poll
Hi Shooters:
Your input has been a great help. I would like to thank you for taking time to answer the poll. I would also like to thank the folks at Pilk Guns for granting permission to post this poll. I will leave it up for a few more days before closing it. Thanks again!
MNshooter
Your input has been a great help. I would like to thank you for taking time to answer the poll. I would also like to thank the folks at Pilk Guns for granting permission to post this poll. I will leave it up for a few more days before closing it. Thanks again!
MNshooter
I'm not in the US so haven't voted, but one thing which did stand out to me was the comment about adding over the years. I don't think I could ever justify £5000 on an all new rifle...conversely, I can certainly see myself buying a new lock, stock and barrel as money / inclination was available and ending up with an all new rifle which would have cost that much if I had bought it all together.
My daughter's currently using my original rifle, but the only things on it which are actually original are the barrel and trigger. It's got a replacement stock, buttplate, rearsight, iris, handstop and foresight. And at some point it'll get a new barrel and trigger too. But that's affordable because it's gradual. £5000 all at once, in a household where 3 people shoot seriously and one's just starting out? Not going to happen.
I think what I'm saying is that you might want to consider making your $8500 rifle modular :) The only things in your list which would matter to me at all are points 1, 2 and 4. I've got a set of top class match sights. I don't want new ones.
My daughter's currently using my original rifle, but the only things on it which are actually original are the barrel and trigger. It's got a replacement stock, buttplate, rearsight, iris, handstop and foresight. And at some point it'll get a new barrel and trigger too. But that's affordable because it's gradual. £5000 all at once, in a household where 3 people shoot seriously and one's just starting out? Not going to happen.
I think what I'm saying is that you might want to consider making your $8500 rifle modular :) The only things in your list which would matter to me at all are points 1, 2 and 4. I've got a set of top class match sights. I don't want new ones.
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bluetentacle
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:38 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
small bore prices
Interesting comments on this subject.
A few ideas worth every cent you paid for them. (nothing)
I think its significant that less than 40 people have weighed in on the subject.
Only one mentioned accuracy. More actually mentioned divorce than accuracy.
Why would anyone need a more expensive rifle, especially in todays world where no one has any money anyway. Is it more accurate? Does it have better sights? Does it have a faster lock time? Does it have more adjustments?
I dont think a rifle can have more adjustments in a stock than current Anschutz or FWB free rifles.
No one makes sights better than Sam Gates did. They are absolutely the best ever made and return to zero EVERY time.
18 and 20 series Anschutz triggers and actions are scarey fast.
That, to me, leaves gunsmithing and ammo. I don't trust the gunsmiths at Anschutz or FWB to hang a barrel perfectly so it needs to be done as custom work. Unfortunately the best at this, like Karl Kenyon and others are retired but someone is probably taking their place.
I haven't shot any of the new Eley Red but I have been told it is the best they have ever made.
So it seems to me what is needed is not a more expensive gun but better gunsmithing. I dont think its possible to get much under 0.5 in. groups at 100 yd with a lead bullet. People have been getting around 0.6 for a long time. Not worth $8 k to get that last 0.1 in.
A few ideas worth every cent you paid for them. (nothing)
I think its significant that less than 40 people have weighed in on the subject.
Only one mentioned accuracy. More actually mentioned divorce than accuracy.
Why would anyone need a more expensive rifle, especially in todays world where no one has any money anyway. Is it more accurate? Does it have better sights? Does it have a faster lock time? Does it have more adjustments?
I dont think a rifle can have more adjustments in a stock than current Anschutz or FWB free rifles.
No one makes sights better than Sam Gates did. They are absolutely the best ever made and return to zero EVERY time.
18 and 20 series Anschutz triggers and actions are scarey fast.
That, to me, leaves gunsmithing and ammo. I don't trust the gunsmiths at Anschutz or FWB to hang a barrel perfectly so it needs to be done as custom work. Unfortunately the best at this, like Karl Kenyon and others are retired but someone is probably taking their place.
I haven't shot any of the new Eley Red but I have been told it is the best they have ever made.
So it seems to me what is needed is not a more expensive gun but better gunsmithing. I dont think its possible to get much under 0.5 in. groups at 100 yd with a lead bullet. People have been getting around 0.6 for a long time. Not worth $8 k to get that last 0.1 in.
Eley red may be the best they've ever made, doesn't mean it's going to shoot well in your rifle.
That's the point, what works for one shooter doesn't always work for another.
The current ISSF prone ranked number one shoots a wooden stocked Anschutz and it looks like his jackets seen better days, his sling looks like it's a sort of canvas.
What I would like to 'buy' is how he gets it to all work for him.
Colin
That's the point, what works for one shooter doesn't always work for another.
The current ISSF prone ranked number one shoots a wooden stocked Anschutz and it looks like his jackets seen better days, his sling looks like it's a sort of canvas.
What I would like to 'buy' is how he gets it to all work for him.
Colin
Is the purpose of your inquiry to determine marketability for production of such a rifle?
If it is, there are a bunch of things to consider, financial and technical. The financial aspects relate to the technical aspects but are not the same. My own inquiries on this subject lead me to believe you may very well be facing a proverbial 'catch 22' on those issues if that is where you are going.
The 3p market it the US is very small. For most all but a tiny sliver of the suppliers in our market there is very much a 'labor of love' aspect to their operations.
I for one, would really like to see a world beating rifle sitting on the gold medal platform of the World Championships and Olympics that has a 'Made in USA' label on it. No real prejudice against Swiss or German hardware that currently dominates those positions, but it would be nice to see us turn our country's technical capacity in that direction. And, it would be nice to not get clobbered by the Euro/Pound conversion every time I wanted some new shiny thing.
If it is, there are a bunch of things to consider, financial and technical. The financial aspects relate to the technical aspects but are not the same. My own inquiries on this subject lead me to believe you may very well be facing a proverbial 'catch 22' on those issues if that is where you are going.
The 3p market it the US is very small. For most all but a tiny sliver of the suppliers in our market there is very much a 'labor of love' aspect to their operations.
I for one, would really like to see a world beating rifle sitting on the gold medal platform of the World Championships and Olympics that has a 'Made in USA' label on it. No real prejudice against Swiss or German hardware that currently dominates those positions, but it would be nice to see us turn our country's technical capacity in that direction. And, it would be nice to not get clobbered by the Euro/Pound conversion every time I wanted some new shiny thing.