What do you see when looking through your scope?

[Chris_D]

Hi guys,

My shooting is improving more and more. While still focusing on all the fundamentals, I am curious about one limitation that I don't understand.

When I am looking through my red-dot scope at the target, my wobble is minimal but my shake is pretty bad. Between the shake and wobble, the red dot dances around the entire black area on the target.

If I follow the basics of squeeze and focus, I am pretty much in the black all the time. However, I cannot seem to shoot any better than the shake or wobble.

I suspect the master and high master shooters do not experience as much shake or wobble. Could some of you masters and high masters share with me what you see as you are aiming your pistols?

Thanks

Chris

[tuj]

I have been struggling with the same thing myself. In some of my reading and advice I have collected, there are sort of two approaches I have identified. One is the 'watch the dot, wait for the bang' approach. That style in theory will let you shoot your wobble if you will. To decrease wobble, try weight training and more practice! The other approach which is kind of interesting is a 'reactive trigger' which is what when the sights come into perfect alignment (or in this case when the dot is centered), one pulls the trigger as quickly as possible without disturbing the sights (easier said than done) as a reaction to the dot moving into the center. The idea here is to train your mind/body so that you react quickly to the centered dot. Finally, I have also heard of people trying to 'control' their wobble such that it moves in a circle and trying to time their shots so they are in a certain part of the 'orbit'.

I will let others with more experience than myself chime in as to their techniques.

[marvelshooter]

I am not exactly sure what the first poster means by wobble AND shake. The dot is always moving. When it has settled into it's (yours) period of minimum movement and is in black start moving the trigger straight back. Some say to start moving the trigger as soon as the dot is anywhere on the target and increase pressure as the movement minimizes and it moves to the black. That doesn't work for me. As far as what I see, I see the dot in the black dancing around. The object is to pull the trigger straight back and fire the shot without disturbing this dance. It is easier to do than to describe. It is also important to learn to call your shots - another thing that is easier done than said.
Dan - High Master, Distinguished, 2600 Club

[Chris_D]

Hi Dan,

thanks for the response. I am probably usin the wrong terms but...

Wobble - big movement of arm, perhaps called sway, generally a slow movement.

Shake - small movement, mostly in hand, fast movement

With practice I have gotten the wobble or sway down to the point where I am mostly looking at red dot on black. A few months back that wobble zone would be about twice the size of the black.

My shake easily covers the entire black and is rather rapid. Using your word, the dot "dances" around the entire black, in my case quickly, almost like a vibration.

With wobble or sway minimized and continuing work to further reduce that, I am trying to determine if it is possible to eliminate shake through practice and excersize. However, understanding what master / high master shooters "see", would help me to understand my techniques to improve.

In other words, if all master / high master shooters shake as much as I do, then working towards figuring out a way to prevent the shakes isn't realistic - rather it is a fundamental I am screwing up on.

Chris

[marvelshooter]

Chris,
I'm not sure if this will be helpful or not but here goes. Movement is movement whether it comes from your hand or arm or your body swaying in the wind. Even your heart beating. Don't over analyze where it comes from. Work to minimize it but don't dwell on it or worse fight it or try to time your shots to when the dot passes the center of the black. It won't work. Accept your wobble and concentrate on pulling the trigger without adding movement. Everybody has wobble.
Good luck - Dan

[GunRunner]

According to Brian Zins and other masters you should be concentrating on the target and not the dot, the dot is in your hand and always moving where the target is still.

[Chris_D]

I have tried the squeeze and hold method, not a good method. Leads too quickly to jerking the trigger as a habit.

I have also tried, and will again this morning, to focus on the target and not the dot. I don't believe my eyes will allow me to do that. My depth of field is so short that the dot ends up being a GIANT blurr.

Anyway, thanks for the advise guys. I just got my classification card for Expert and am only a few points away from Master.

Chris

[Rover]

You don't look at both the bull and the dot, just the bull. They should both be sharp, though. If not, you need glasses. There is no "depth of field"; they should both be on the same plane optically.

Squeezing the grip too hard will make you shake. It sounds like you're improving, though, so just keep practicing.

[william]

To paraphrase Friedrich Nietzsche (not much of a shooter I believe): When you peer into the scope the scope peers back.

[crankythunder]

In one of my training sessions, my coach told me not to worry about the wiggle, the wobble, or the shakes.

His reasoning is as follows:

They attached lasers to quite a number of shooters on their accomplished bullseye team. They found that once the laser settled down, from 3 seconds to 9 seconds, that about 85 % of the time the shooter held the laser on the 10. 10% of the time the gun was on the 9 ring, and the remaining 5 % it was on the 8 or the seven. both slow fire, and timed and rapid fire.

Then they sat down and thought about it.


They reasoned that if the shooter who was holding the gun at that percentages, if he did a perfect trigger pull, he would get a 97 or a 98 from shooting 10 rounds on a target. Furthermore, realizing that holding the dot on the bull, and squeezing the trigger at the same time, was almost impossible to do. Most shooters can squeeze the trigger properly but in practice, they stopped squeezing when the dot wandered. If the shooter would just concentrate on squeezing the trigger and perfecting that, then they would score 97 or 98 on that target.

So they came up with a phrase...."Watch the Dot, Wait for Bang". I have also heard "Watch the dot, wait for the Shot".

Therefore, once you have the stance, grip, alignment, breathing, and such down pat or committed to instinct, you are left with sight alignment and trigger control to master. Dont worry about sight alignment too much, concentrate on trigger squeeze, aka Watch the dot, wait for Bang.

Regards,
Cranky

[Chris_D]

You don't look at both the bull and the dot, just the bull. They should both be sharp, though. If not, you need glasses. There is no "depth of field"; they should both be on the same plane optically.

Squeezing the grip too hard will make you shake. It sounds like you're improving, though, so just keep practicing.

LOL! Yeah, no kidding i need glasses, heck I have been wearing them for 45 years, bifocals and all. With all my eye problems, I have no depth of field. I can only have one thing or another (relative to distance) in focus.


Chris

[Chris_D]

In one of my training sessions, my coach told me not to worry about the wiggle, the wobble, or the shakes.

His reasoning is as follows:

They attached lasers to quite a number of shooters on their accomplished bullseye team. They found that once the laser settled down, from 3 seconds to 9 seconds, that about 85 % of the time the shooter held the laser on the 10. 10% of the time the gun was on the 9 ring, and the remaining 5 % it was on the 8 or the seven. both slow fire, and timed and rapid fire.

Then they sat down and thought about it.


They reasoned that if the shooter who was holding the gun at that percentages, if he did a perfect trigger pull, he would get a 97 or a 98 from shooting 10 rounds on a target. Furthermore, realizing that holding the dot on the bull, and squeezing the trigger at the same time, was almost impossible to do. Most shooters can squeeze the trigger properly but in practice, they stopped squeezing when the dot wandered. If the shooter would just concentrate on squeezing the trigger and perfecting that, then they would score 97 or 98 on that target.

So they came up with a phrase...."Watch the Dot, Wait for Bang". I have also heard "Watch the dot, wait for the Shot".

Therefore, once you have the stance, grip, alignment, breathing, and such down pat or committed to instinct, you are left with sight alignment and trigger control to master. Dont worry about sight alignment too much, concentrate on trigger squeeze, aka Watch the dot, wait for Bang.

Regards,
Cranky

This is pretty much my style of shooting. About the only time I hold the squeeze and back off of a shot now is in slow fire when I know I should bench the gun for a rest. I also agree that the dot is on the black the vast majority of the time so it makes perfect sense that if you don't disturbe the "dot" when the shot breaks it should be in the black.

We will just keep working away at it. Thanks again.

Chris