Howdy All -
Newbie here.
Sometime back in the 60's, I saw / read an article about a new style Free Pistol and will appreciate any and all help in locating one or the article.
Not sure, but I think it was a Hammerli.
It was rather unique with an Martini style action mounted upside down and
with a Sight Bar mounted on what looked like a single, side, Bridge Structure that ran the complete length of the Pistol.
The Author of the article said that the primary configuration consideration was the upside down mounted action, not the unusual Sight Rib. He stated that this configuration put all recoil more in line with the forearm and , therefore, produced less felt and a more controllable recoil.
Again. any and all help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance and have a Great Week.
Wolfen
What Was It & Where Is One
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
is it the margolin you are thinking about? this was a rapid fire model, not freepistol.
http://www.geocities.ws/pistoleer2001/Evolution2.html
cut and paste from the web:
Target Pistol Evolution - 2
The Rapid FIre Match had its origins in military practices of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. When adapted for Olympic use the match was shot using, initially, semi-auto pistols of .22 LR calibre but the ammunition soon changed to .22 short to lessen muzzle rise. This was important as each shooter had a bank of five targets to shoot at in very short time limits - 8, 6 and 4 seconds. Pistols used were primarily of simple blow-back design, usually with counter weights fitted and, near the middle of the 20th century, with compensators on the end of the barrels - again to minimise muzzle lift. This remained the case until the Melbourne Olympics in 1956, when the USSR team used a pistol which caused a major change to the rules and led the way to the development of the modern rapid fire pistol.
This is the pistol that caused a furore at the 1956 Olympics and led to a change in the rules for the Rapid Fire Match. There is actually very little about it that is revolutionary. It is simply a Margolin pistol which has been turned upside down, a longer barrel fitted, the trigger relocated and the grip so arranged that the barrel position is very low in relation to the hand. The barrel is on the bottom in the picture above and the sights are set on a ramp on the top. The pistol was nicknamed the "Hacksaw" pistol for obvious reasons. The rule changes made after these games limited pistols to a size which would fit into a box
30cm x 15 cm x 5 cm, and the centre line of the barrel bore had to pass above the hand, in the firing position. Ironically, these changes ultimately led to the development of a pistol which was truly revolutionary and which eventually led to the elimination of all muzzle lift in Rapid Fire pistols.
USA Rapid Fire Development
The USA never really took Rapid FIre seriously for long enough, mainly because of its own National Pistol Matches which were based on the .45 auto pistol and to a lesser extent the .22 and .38 calibre revolver/auto. As a consequence there was very little effort put into developing a world class rapid fire pistol. The High Standard was used successfully by top American Olympians for a number of years but the pistol was never really competitive. The experimental S&W RF pistol was an odd attempt to tame muzzle lift and was never greatly successful. American shooters now use European RF pistols at the Olympics
USSR Rapid Fire Development
USSR (now Russian) RF pistols were usually of basic design and heavily modified by Olympic team armourers to meet the needs of individual shooters. This included drilling barrel vents. The IZH 34 is still used but most Russian RF shooters now use European pistols for this event
Hammerli Rapid Fire Pistols
Hammerli once made a fine selection of RF pistols but since the 232, which never really gained great popularity, the firm has withdrawn from the RF market. This was unfortunate as Hammerli made really fine pistols
The Family of Modern Rapid Fire Pistols
Based on recommendations made by the ISSF Technical Committee and adopted by the ISSF Executive, the Rapid Fire Match will undergo a profound change following the 2004 Olympics in Athens. It has been decided to replace the .22 short rapid fire pistol with the Standard Pistol, described in previous pages. This will make the match quite a deal more difficult as the Standard Pistol uses .22 LR ammunition. No special grips will be permitted and venting of the barrels and or muzzle brakes will be banned.
The existing Rapid Fire target will be replaced with a new target in the black and white format familiar to precision shooters. Time limits for the match will remain unchanged. Achieving high scores in the 4 second series with this type of pistol will prove a challenge for most shooters due to the amount of recoil generated by a Standard Pistol. Reasons given by the ISSF for these changes are that the .22 short cartridge was expensive to produce and even the best makes suffered from reliability problems, and it was also felt that the changes would make the match more popular with a greater number of shooters world wide. Whether this proves to be the case, only time will tell. Curiously, the wheel has almost turned full circle for this match, as the .22LR cartridge and this type of pistol was used in this match in its earliest days. Competitors can only hope that it will not fully revert to its origins with semi-automatic service pistols in full calibre having to be used. Now that WOULD be a challenge.
http://www.geocities.ws/pistoleer2001/Evolution2.html
cut and paste from the web:
Target Pistol Evolution - 2
The Rapid FIre Match had its origins in military practices of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. When adapted for Olympic use the match was shot using, initially, semi-auto pistols of .22 LR calibre but the ammunition soon changed to .22 short to lessen muzzle rise. This was important as each shooter had a bank of five targets to shoot at in very short time limits - 8, 6 and 4 seconds. Pistols used were primarily of simple blow-back design, usually with counter weights fitted and, near the middle of the 20th century, with compensators on the end of the barrels - again to minimise muzzle lift. This remained the case until the Melbourne Olympics in 1956, when the USSR team used a pistol which caused a major change to the rules and led the way to the development of the modern rapid fire pistol.
This is the pistol that caused a furore at the 1956 Olympics and led to a change in the rules for the Rapid Fire Match. There is actually very little about it that is revolutionary. It is simply a Margolin pistol which has been turned upside down, a longer barrel fitted, the trigger relocated and the grip so arranged that the barrel position is very low in relation to the hand. The barrel is on the bottom in the picture above and the sights are set on a ramp on the top. The pistol was nicknamed the "Hacksaw" pistol for obvious reasons. The rule changes made after these games limited pistols to a size which would fit into a box
30cm x 15 cm x 5 cm, and the centre line of the barrel bore had to pass above the hand, in the firing position. Ironically, these changes ultimately led to the development of a pistol which was truly revolutionary and which eventually led to the elimination of all muzzle lift in Rapid Fire pistols.
USA Rapid Fire Development
The USA never really took Rapid FIre seriously for long enough, mainly because of its own National Pistol Matches which were based on the .45 auto pistol and to a lesser extent the .22 and .38 calibre revolver/auto. As a consequence there was very little effort put into developing a world class rapid fire pistol. The High Standard was used successfully by top American Olympians for a number of years but the pistol was never really competitive. The experimental S&W RF pistol was an odd attempt to tame muzzle lift and was never greatly successful. American shooters now use European RF pistols at the Olympics
USSR Rapid Fire Development
USSR (now Russian) RF pistols were usually of basic design and heavily modified by Olympic team armourers to meet the needs of individual shooters. This included drilling barrel vents. The IZH 34 is still used but most Russian RF shooters now use European pistols for this event
Hammerli Rapid Fire Pistols
Hammerli once made a fine selection of RF pistols but since the 232, which never really gained great popularity, the firm has withdrawn from the RF market. This was unfortunate as Hammerli made really fine pistols
The Family of Modern Rapid Fire Pistols
Based on recommendations made by the ISSF Technical Committee and adopted by the ISSF Executive, the Rapid Fire Match will undergo a profound change following the 2004 Olympics in Athens. It has been decided to replace the .22 short rapid fire pistol with the Standard Pistol, described in previous pages. This will make the match quite a deal more difficult as the Standard Pistol uses .22 LR ammunition. No special grips will be permitted and venting of the barrels and or muzzle brakes will be banned.
The existing Rapid Fire target will be replaced with a new target in the black and white format familiar to precision shooters. Time limits for the match will remain unchanged. Achieving high scores in the 4 second series with this type of pistol will prove a challenge for most shooters due to the amount of recoil generated by a Standard Pistol. Reasons given by the ISSF for these changes are that the .22 short cartridge was expensive to produce and even the best makes suffered from reliability problems, and it was also felt that the changes would make the match more popular with a greater number of shooters world wide. Whether this proves to be the case, only time will tell. Curiously, the wheel has almost turned full circle for this match, as the .22LR cartridge and this type of pistol was used in this match in its earliest days. Competitors can only hope that it will not fully revert to its origins with semi-automatic service pistols in full calibre having to be used. Now that WOULD be a challenge.
Re: What Was It & Where Is One
Morini CM80?
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/spcm80.htm
See also this one
http://www.stbesancon.com/blog/?p=1235
http://www.pilkguns.com/tenp/spcm80.htm
See also this one
http://www.stbesancon.com/blog/?p=1235
Getting there
scerir & ammagad -
Thank you for your responses.
ammagad came closest. However, I'm sure it was a Freepistol with a Martini type action mounted upside down. It's Sight Rib was very similar but with more vertical and diagonal braces between barrel and rib.
I seem to remember that it also had ergonomic Grips.
Thanks again.
Wolfen
Thank you for your responses.
ammagad came closest. However, I'm sure it was a Freepistol with a Martini type action mounted upside down. It's Sight Rib was very similar but with more vertical and diagonal braces between barrel and rib.
I seem to remember that it also had ergonomic Grips.
Thanks again.
Wolfen
That's It
ammagad -
After reading this article about its designer, Mikhail Margolin, I do believe you are correct and that the Five-shot MTsZ-I .22 target automatic described in the Sept. 1958 GunsMagazine at http://toyfj40.freeshell.org/GunPix/Margolin.html is what I've been looking for.
Not a bad design for a blind man.
I congratulate you for your Great Memory and thank you sir.
Regards,
Wolfen
After reading this article about its designer, Mikhail Margolin, I do believe you are correct and that the Five-shot MTsZ-I .22 target automatic described in the Sept. 1958 GunsMagazine at http://toyfj40.freeshell.org/GunPix/Margolin.html is what I've been looking for.
Not a bad design for a blind man.
I congratulate you for your Great Memory and thank you sir.
Regards,
Wolfen
Re: That's It
Thank you for this link, Wolfen.Wolfen wrote:ammagad -
After reading this article about its designer, Mikhail Margolin, I do believe you are correct and that the Five-shot MTsZ-I .22 target automatic described in the Sept. 1958 GunsMagazine at http://toyfj40.freeshell.org/GunPix/Margolin.html is what I've been looking for.
Not a bad design for a blind man.
I congratulate you for your Great Memory and thank you sir.
Regards,
Wolfen
I had my first experience in Olympic style target shooting by practicing over one year with a Margolin pistol. After achieving a certain performance score, me and a few other team members were introduced to a more advanced model: IZH-HR30. I still have great memories of my first Olympic style pistol and my first coach!