I have been trying sub 6 for a week on air pistol. Holding about 1 sight width below the bottom of the black dot. I am having good results but I seem to have trouble with holding the same elevation between shooting sessins as my point of impact shifts up and down.
How do you good guys select and maintain a sub six holding spot?
Sub 6 Hold How low do you hold?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Re: Sub 6 Hold How low do you hold?
Sounds about right if you have an apparent square of front sight in the rear sight notch.montster wrote:...Holding about 1 sight width below the bottom of the black dot...
You will find that 'it' comes with practice (and dry-fire or sighting exercises work as well as live fire does). It's not a matter of "select and maintain a sub six holding spot", it's more of 'what feels right' and accepting that you will wobble more shots into the centre of the target than you will wobble out
-
Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
I, too, was having high verticle stringing when I was holding close to the bull. I found if I held about the 4 ring, the bull was only in peripheral vision and the high shots disappeared. IMHO, trying to hold equal areas of white defeats one advantage of holding sub 6 and that is reducing the tendancy to be too precise with your aim.
It's impossible to be so precise, it's all about making it easy to reproduce. Your brain likes nice even patterns so equal amounts of white space is a great pattern to recognise and repeat.Freepistol wrote:I, too, was having high verticle stringing when I was holding close to the bull. I found if I held about the 4 ring, the bull was only in peripheral vision and the high shots disappeared. IMHO, trying to hold equal areas of white defeats one advantage of holding sub 6 and that is reducing the tendancy to be too precise with your aim.
Rob.
Last edited by RobStubbs on Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
sub 6
Perfect answer Doc.
Try aiming for the general area half way between the black and the bottom of the card. You can wander between the 3 and 4 rings in your alignment and the shot will still be a 10.
The positive of shooting such a sub-six area aim is that your mind comes to accept the sights being in that comfortable central white area and you are not distracted by matters such just making the gap between the black and your sights the same each time.
Focus on sight alignment within the general area and the results will be good. When we try to be too precise (such as shooting with the gap between the front sight and the black being exactly the same as the gap either side of the sight), we hold on too long, wobble more and quickly take a shot which will result in far more 8s and 7s than you will get shooting a relaxed area aim.
The positive of shooting such a sub-six area aim is that your mind comes to accept the sights being in that comfortable central white area and you are not distracted by matters such just making the gap between the black and your sights the same each time.
Focus on sight alignment within the general area and the results will be good. When we try to be too precise (such as shooting with the gap between the front sight and the black being exactly the same as the gap either side of the sight), we hold on too long, wobble more and quickly take a shot which will result in far more 8s and 7s than you will get shooting a relaxed area aim.
-
david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
sub 6
Perfect answer Colin. Keyword being "try". Monster you should try it all! What YOU r comfortable with will be what u shoot best with. There is NO PERFECT SINGLE ANSWER.
I use a foresight width so that in my shooting position the sight picture gives me the appearance of the foresight as the width of the black.
I try to then set my rear sight depth so that the foresight appears as a square in the rear sight and the light bars are about 30-50% of the forsight width on each side. My area aim is then with a similar light bar below the target black.
For each range with different lighting you may have to alter the rear sight width as various light levels will alter the sight image a little.
I try to then set my rear sight depth so that the foresight appears as a square in the rear sight and the light bars are about 30-50% of the forsight width on each side. My area aim is then with a similar light bar below the target black.
For each range with different lighting you may have to alter the rear sight width as various light levels will alter the sight image a little.
- Attachments
-
- sight_picture.gif (3.56 KiB) Viewed 8271 times
Thanks for the help.
I shot a league match yesterday. Some targets I grouped high, some below but mostly high. I will work through how to settle down with more practice. I think I will continue with a pretty low sub 6 and see where that takes me.
Several years back now, I attended a training camp in Colorado Springs. The National team coach asked one of the participants how low below the bull did he hold his front sight. Did the shooter hold the six ring? The five ring? The four ring? Or perhaps the bottom of the scoring rings? Where did he hold the front sight? Simple question certainly!
Listening to this conversation from the side, I realized that the coach was just setting the poor fellow up! Any specific answer was going to be the wrong answer. I did not understand myself for a while why a specific answer was so wrong. And that was the whole point of the question and why the coach was setting up the unfortunate participant.
I now believe there are two reasons. One is that we are trying for an area hold. We all move continuously. Our bodies sway, it is called balance. Muscles are constantly adjusting to hold us upright and nearly motionless. Our arms are always moving and so is our wrist (the largest concern for pistol shooters). The only way not the have movement is rigor mortis! Hence, we can only hold a general area.
The more important reason a specific, exact location on the bullseye is the wrong answer is that to KNOW where you are on the target; we have to look to see where you are! How would you know that you have exactly the place on the target without looking at the bullseye? If you are looking at the bullseye, how can you be looking at the front and rear sight alignment?
There is an element of trust in this concept. The mental focus priority has to be so intently on the front and rear sight alignment, that you can not spare little sneak peaks at the front sight-bullseye alignment. Trust the perception of where you are on the target. And if your perception of the bullseye is wrong, ABORT.
Listening to this conversation from the side, I realized that the coach was just setting the poor fellow up! Any specific answer was going to be the wrong answer. I did not understand myself for a while why a specific answer was so wrong. And that was the whole point of the question and why the coach was setting up the unfortunate participant.
I now believe there are two reasons. One is that we are trying for an area hold. We all move continuously. Our bodies sway, it is called balance. Muscles are constantly adjusting to hold us upright and nearly motionless. Our arms are always moving and so is our wrist (the largest concern for pistol shooters). The only way not the have movement is rigor mortis! Hence, we can only hold a general area.
The more important reason a specific, exact location on the bullseye is the wrong answer is that to KNOW where you are on the target; we have to look to see where you are! How would you know that you have exactly the place on the target without looking at the bullseye? If you are looking at the bullseye, how can you be looking at the front and rear sight alignment?
There is an element of trust in this concept. The mental focus priority has to be so intently on the front and rear sight alignment, that you can not spare little sneak peaks at the front sight-bullseye alignment. Trust the perception of where you are on the target. And if your perception of the bullseye is wrong, ABORT.
-
orionshooter
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:36 am
- Location: Rocky Mountains of Colorado
-
R.M.
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
- Location: On top of a mountain west of Golden Colorado
As a beginner, I found the "Sub_Six" hold to be almost impossible. It's a difficult thing to trust. I tried it on and off for several years before I actually understood it. Now it's the most natural for me. I would guess that my aiming point would be about half way between the bottom of the black and the bottom of the card. Like I said, it take a lot of work to trust what you're doing, but in my experience, it works.
-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
Turn the target around.
Shoot against the blank side.
Focus (physically) on the front sight.
Focus (mentally) on maintaining sight alignment.
Point the aligned sights somewhere in the general vicinity of the aiming area and execute perfect trigger control when the sights are perfectly aligned (but I repeat myself; if the sights weren't perfectly aligned when you released the shot- by definition, it was crappy-assed trigger control).
You Will Be Amazed to see that your shot group (a measure of precision) is tighter than it would have been with a Distraction Bull dancing in front of your face.
Hey Pete.
Shoot against the blank side.
Focus (physically) on the front sight.
Focus (mentally) on maintaining sight alignment.
Point the aligned sights somewhere in the general vicinity of the aiming area and execute perfect trigger control when the sights are perfectly aligned (but I repeat myself; if the sights weren't perfectly aligned when you released the shot- by definition, it was crappy-assed trigger control).
You Will Be Amazed to see that your shot group (a measure of precision) is tighter than it would have been with a Distraction Bull dancing in front of your face.
Hey Pete.
-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
-
Steve Swartz
- Posts: 444
- Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 8:06 am
- Location: Auburn, AL
For Montster:
It doesn't matter one bit how much "white space" you think you are holding above your front sight.
The sight picture difference between a "top of the ten ring" and "bottom of the ten ring" hold LOOKS huge.*
You would be amazed at how many people shoot a 7 while trying to "dress up" a 10 into a better 10 . . . .
*well, actually, it is huge. If all you did was bust a cap on every look at great alignment (not aim; screw aim; wobble can't be changed much during a shot in any case) you would add a ton of points to your score. If all you did was to stop shooting 7s what would that do to your score?
It doesn't matter one bit how much "white space" you think you are holding above your front sight.
The sight picture difference between a "top of the ten ring" and "bottom of the ten ring" hold LOOKS huge.*
You would be amazed at how many people shoot a 7 while trying to "dress up" a 10 into a better 10 . . . .
*well, actually, it is huge. If all you did was bust a cap on every look at great alignment (not aim; screw aim; wobble can't be changed much during a shot in any case) you would add a ton of points to your score. If all you did was to stop shooting 7s what would that do to your score?
-
Freepistol
- Posts: 773
- Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:52 pm
- Location: Berwick, PA
Maybe I could provide a different perspective. Most shooters try and pick and area to aim and work on "perfecting" the sights in that area. How about perfecting the sights and let the pistol finds it's own area to hold.
I know it sounds weird, but it's like water finding it's own level in my mind. many newer shooters to sub six try and visualize a " sweet spot" and work to hold there. I find that if I focus on sights and trigger, my subconscious will pick the spot for me. Where is that? I don't know, I don't care. As long as I feel comfortable and have confidence in the theory I'm OK.
I realize that this can be a "leap of faith" for many shooters who have been brought up on a diet of the traditional six o'clock hold. It was for me at first, but after a few Standard Pistol matches I started to believe. I think starting sub six with the Free Pistol, may be a mistake for some since they may be struggling with the pistol style to begin with. A few matches with SP or Center Fire precision will build confidence in the theory.
A good friend of mine shoots sub six at the bottom of the "paper" or white area, is this better? Well for him it is. When asked why he held their he said "It felt natural? OK good. The more natural the better.
If you are the personality type that just can't accept things in the abstract, then then sub six may never work for you. That's OK, try center hold, I know a few world record holders who shoot that way.
In the end it does not matter, the results matter. Good shooting.
I know it sounds weird, but it's like water finding it's own level in my mind. many newer shooters to sub six try and visualize a " sweet spot" and work to hold there. I find that if I focus on sights and trigger, my subconscious will pick the spot for me. Where is that? I don't know, I don't care. As long as I feel comfortable and have confidence in the theory I'm OK.
I realize that this can be a "leap of faith" for many shooters who have been brought up on a diet of the traditional six o'clock hold. It was for me at first, but after a few Standard Pistol matches I started to believe. I think starting sub six with the Free Pistol, may be a mistake for some since they may be struggling with the pistol style to begin with. A few matches with SP or Center Fire precision will build confidence in the theory.
A good friend of mine shoots sub six at the bottom of the "paper" or white area, is this better? Well for him it is. When asked why he held their he said "It felt natural? OK good. The more natural the better.
If you are the personality type that just can't accept things in the abstract, then then sub six may never work for you. That's OK, try center hold, I know a few world record holders who shoot that way.
In the end it does not matter, the results matter. Good shooting.