I know there's been a lot of banter and badgering on TT and I feel it should not be that way. I know there are a few National Team alumni and past Olympians who look at this board. I think I can safely say we are all more than happy to share what we can with others freely. To us it's not a business, it's a passion. We may not be in the game as much as we ( I ) would like, but we still love it. Many of the USST members never had a personal coach. That never stopped them. Having a positive attitude and the desire to meet your goals, whatever they may be are key. If you want to be a non competitive shooter- great. If you want to be a national champion- great. Olympic champion- great. My point is that we all have different goals. Just because your goal does not match up with someone else's goal don't be fooled into thinking your goal is any less important. I had a lot of (positive) support from a wide variety of people, not all elite shooters. I called on each of them for different types of support. I must admit I shunned anyone that I felt was more interested in negativity than positive energy.
Shooting elite level scores is more than having the best equipment, it's about having the willingness to train and sometimes suffer in the pursuit of your goal. Of all the great shooters I have met around the world I don't think I ever met one that was unwilling to share insight freely with others- even despite some very tough language barriers.
There are no dumb questions and there is never just one answer. If you want an honest answer, ask the question.
The straight dope
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Thank you for the kind words, yes to gain the proper credentials I would suggest you try the USST coaches clinics or the ISSF coaches clinics. Both offer classes to help persons interested in coaching at a professional level. I think the US Shooting Team may offer the clinics a few times a year. The NRA also has coaching clinics, but this is more sport specific to NRA style shooting. The USST clinics offer rifle and shotgun as well as pistol. Taking a class is always a good first step.
Training or Practice
I got a PM from a shooter who wanted to know the difference. I thought I would pose the question to the forum before I chimed in. Anyone?
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
Training
We did this one acouple years ago(just a note to anyone who wants to check)Whenever the question is asked I feel we should answer it again for a newcomer instead of telling them to look it up.You never know maybe something new will come of it. Here is part of my answer. My son is a very good college baseball player .He and the team goes to the ballfield to practice. They go to the gym to train. If I had to train I would have never became a good shooter. It stops me from becoming a great shooter. I practice alot and yes I have shoot above 592(in practice many times) .I feel not training keeps me from doing that in competition. In the orchard with my free pistol or the range with my AP putting shots down range is practice. Dry firing(and what goes with it) is training . In my opinion that covers 90% of the answer you guys can fill in the rest.........David.
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David Levene
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Re: Training or Practice
The difference between what and what?Greg Derr wrote:I got a PM from a shooter who wanted to know the difference. I thought I would pose the question to the forum before I chimed in. Anyone?
edit note: Sorry, I missed the change of subject; I see now.
My oppinion, training is specific focus on a small element of the much larger task at hand(any sport) For example in shooting if you were to work on your hold/grip for session, that would be training. This is very important because it puts mental focus on the element you are training and allows for better imprinting of the process on the subconscious.
Practice is rehearsal for competition. I don't recommend keeping score in either practice or training because it can give an artificial sense of performance which could effect competition through a false sense of expectation of that training level.
That brings a question on how to gage training/practice. I recommend using a %percentage value system. Like having 90% of the shots fired in the black, or 80% of the shots inside the black. It's simpler and more in tune with real world results.
Practice is rehearsal for competition. I don't recommend keeping score in either practice or training because it can give an artificial sense of performance which could effect competition through a false sense of expectation of that training level.
That brings a question on how to gage training/practice. I recommend using a %percentage value system. Like having 90% of the shots fired in the black, or 80% of the shots inside the black. It's simpler and more in tune with real world results.
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
Training
Mr. Derr was shooting 570plus in competition before I knew what an AP. was.His opinion has more (?) creditbility than mine. I spoke with some ball players yesterday and they said "training and practice are the same,when you get to a certain level" That does ring true in shooting and is sort of what Greg said. "WORKING ON FUNDAMENTALS vs working on REHEARSAL FOR COMPETITION" A different way of saying it but still saying the same thing. I bet Tiger works on fundamentals alot more than actually golfing,but when hes golfing hes still training(or practiceing) SO I will end this with my quote of the day "PRACTICE THE FUNDAMENTALS"
David, good post. I think if you have a training regiment that works stick with it. I can tell you this, I had to work on small elements all the time. I also had to work hard at not knowing scores. Before electronic scoring I would only scope two shots on a FP target,and would not look as AP targets came screaming back. When we went to electronic scoring we would cover the shot tally on the right with a piece of target or a towel. Now you can't do that, you have to turn the monitor away. It's not hard to influenced by score when you may be dropping just a few points per target. Or for a newer shooter to start adding things up and realizing they are on pace for a personal high. It was common at world cups to avoid looking at score by everyone.
I've walked the course during practice with Tiger Woods, he would not hesitate to drop another ball for another shot if he missed his stroke. The only problems is in competition there are no Mulligans.
I've walked the course during practice with Tiger Woods, he would not hesitate to drop another ball for another shot if he missed his stroke. The only problems is in competition there are no Mulligans.
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
training
At my only nationals I did cover the screen. They told me later I couldnt do it. I shoot better not knowing my score but now I am working on checking evey shot and not being effected by a good or bad shot . Its working.
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
Training
My post usually ramble on,not like the last one. But my son and his pregant wife spun off the freeway today @65mph rolling down a 40ft plus embankment where nobody could see them. STRESS ON a soon to be grandfather.(wife and baby fine , my son broke his neck ,ribs , ear and a gash in his head. but hes alright). ...........(back to shooting) Knowing the score thats a tough one for me.A total mental game,one that I want to win. I am more into making adjustments to my gun during a match than when I first started shooting. When I first started my mind set was "the gun is sighted perfect its not going to change" BUT now (thats a big but) I understand the gun might be sighted in and not changing but my body is(changing). During 80 shots my group is moving.YES I DID NOT BELIEVE THAT A FEW YEARS AGO! I actually change my sights during a training session now. Please give me some feedback on that. What do you guys do? PS. The accident has forced me to sell at least one gun, hopefully i still make it to a big match this year!
David- wow, I hope your son is OK. That can be a real life changing injury.
Yes I have seen a group change in a match. I tend to believe a some causes are real and some are imagined. Dramatic changes in lighting conditions over the period of free pistol match can effect the way we see the sights and target, this occurs with a change in out eyes iris, which changes our depth of field perception. Another change can be in the grip due to swelling or shrinking of the hand from high or low humidity and or water intake during the match. A hand can swell or shrink over a short period.
With electronic targets scoring you can monitor group ( not score) and keep an eye on group center placement. One thing that I have come to realize is that any perceived adjustment (or need) is magnified by a factor of 2 in the mind. In other words if you adjust your sights one click on the gun, ultimately the group will move two click due to the subconscious.
This bring up a greater point. " Should I adjust my sights or just work through it" Well if you don't, you will spend too much time thinking about it during the remaining shots. If you do you may move your group needlessly. It is a tough thing to deal with. I would compromise by making a slight adjustment, this would satisfy both needs.
As a shooter gets more disciplined and confident, the need for some of this will go away. I'm still waiting for that time.
Yes I have seen a group change in a match. I tend to believe a some causes are real and some are imagined. Dramatic changes in lighting conditions over the period of free pistol match can effect the way we see the sights and target, this occurs with a change in out eyes iris, which changes our depth of field perception. Another change can be in the grip due to swelling or shrinking of the hand from high or low humidity and or water intake during the match. A hand can swell or shrink over a short period.
With electronic targets scoring you can monitor group ( not score) and keep an eye on group center placement. One thing that I have come to realize is that any perceived adjustment (or need) is magnified by a factor of 2 in the mind. In other words if you adjust your sights one click on the gun, ultimately the group will move two click due to the subconscious.
This bring up a greater point. " Should I adjust my sights or just work through it" Well if you don't, you will spend too much time thinking about it during the remaining shots. If you do you may move your group needlessly. It is a tough thing to deal with. I would compromise by making a slight adjustment, this would satisfy both needs.
As a shooter gets more disciplined and confident, the need for some of this will go away. I'm still waiting for that time.
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
By a factor of 2 in mind
By a factor of 2 in mind! Never a truer statement written.
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david alaways
- Posts: 177
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 am
- Location: CHICO CA.
scatt
thank you , I think my scatt is going up for sale next.(www redding .com) if you want to see a photo of the wreck.
A question related to the TOZ free pistol
At this point I’m shooting a couple hundred rounds per week. It seems like shooters who post in various forums are making adjustments (tinkering?) a lot. Even for shooters who shoot thousands of rounds per week is there that much adjusting that needs to be done?
This is a good question. The TOZ is a great pistol and has won more than any other. One can make the case for the Toz's ability to have an inconsistant trigger pull. I have found that the TOZ can be very consistant if you take a few things into account.
First the TOZ internals can be crude, this makes for rough surfaces which can result in trigger let off that feels inconsistant. I like to smooth all the surfaces myself, or you may find a gunsmith with knowledge of the TOZ to do this for you. Once done this will solve a lot of problems. The TOZ has a tendency to like a little more sear engagement that some other free pistols like the Hammerli which is made to a higher degree of quality, think Swiss watch. The ease at which the TOZ can be adjusted is a drawback, I think easy access makes it tempting to soem shooters to tinker.
Once you start tinkering it is hard to stop. By this I mean that I have watched some shooters take a few shots, turn a few screws, take a few more shots, then repeat the process of adjusting the gun. This can only hurt your focus on the shooting process. If this is you, find a good smith and have the trigger smoothed out, then shoot it.
Now to trigger weight. I get this question a lot, " What trigger weight do you shoot" Well the straight dope is this. I shoot a trigger heavy enough that:
1) I can control it, get now accidental shots and am able to start and stop the "triggering process" even if it has started.
2) I can feel my finger on the trigger blade given the shooting weather conditions.
3) it is consistant.
These are in no order of importance. With reguard to weather, The capilaries in the finger are small, and being a long way from the heart will tend to lose blood flow faster in cooler temps. So I do make adjustments to trigger weight based on the weather, which allows me to feel the trigger blade.
For example in Japan WC 1990 something the shooting venue was on a hillside and very cold, feeling the trigger was hard, I adjusted the trigger up during dryfiring and in sighter shots until I felt comfortable. I did not have my shooting mit with me. After the match and final a number of us got together to to congratulate Tanyu Kiryakov on his win with a 571 raw score. Iasked him about feeling his trigger and the cold, he said he had to adjust to 80 grams to feel the trigger. Then we all (finalists) realized we had all adjusted our trigger to a heavier weight.
This is a good question. The TOZ is a great pistol and has won more than any other. One can make the case for the Toz's ability to have an inconsistant trigger pull. I have found that the TOZ can be very consistant if you take a few things into account.
First the TOZ internals can be crude, this makes for rough surfaces which can result in trigger let off that feels inconsistant. I like to smooth all the surfaces myself, or you may find a gunsmith with knowledge of the TOZ to do this for you. Once done this will solve a lot of problems. The TOZ has a tendency to like a little more sear engagement that some other free pistols like the Hammerli which is made to a higher degree of quality, think Swiss watch. The ease at which the TOZ can be adjusted is a drawback, I think easy access makes it tempting to soem shooters to tinker.
Once you start tinkering it is hard to stop. By this I mean that I have watched some shooters take a few shots, turn a few screws, take a few more shots, then repeat the process of adjusting the gun. This can only hurt your focus on the shooting process. If this is you, find a good smith and have the trigger smoothed out, then shoot it.
Now to trigger weight. I get this question a lot, " What trigger weight do you shoot" Well the straight dope is this. I shoot a trigger heavy enough that:
1) I can control it, get now accidental shots and am able to start and stop the "triggering process" even if it has started.
2) I can feel my finger on the trigger blade given the shooting weather conditions.
3) it is consistant.
These are in no order of importance. With reguard to weather, The capilaries in the finger are small, and being a long way from the heart will tend to lose blood flow faster in cooler temps. So I do make adjustments to trigger weight based on the weather, which allows me to feel the trigger blade.
For example in Japan WC 1990 something the shooting venue was on a hillside and very cold, feeling the trigger was hard, I adjusted the trigger up during dryfiring and in sighter shots until I felt comfortable. I did not have my shooting mit with me. After the match and final a number of us got together to to congratulate Tanyu Kiryakov on his win with a 571 raw score. Iasked him about feeling his trigger and the cold, he said he had to adjust to 80 grams to feel the trigger. Then we all (finalists) realized we had all adjusted our trigger to a heavier weight.
A question related to the TOZ free pistol
At this point I’m shooting a couple hundred rounds per week. It seems like shooters who post in various forums are making adjustments (tinkering?) a lot. Even for shooters who shoot thousands of rounds per week is there that much adjusting that needs to be done?
This is a good question. The TOZ is a great pistol and has won more than any other. One can make the case for the Toz's ability to have an inconsistant trigger pull. I have found that the TOZ can be very consistant if you take a few things into account.
First the TOZ internals can be crude, this makes for rough surfaces which can result in trigger let off that feels inconsistant. I like to smooth all the surfaces myself, or you may find a gunsmith with knowledge of the TOZ to do this for you. Once done this will solve a lot of problems. The TOZ has a tendency to like a little more sear engagement that some other free pistols like the Hammerli which is made to a higher degree of quality, think Swiss watch. The ease at which the TOZ can be adjusted is a drawback, I think easy access makes it tempting to soem shooters to tinker.
Once you start tinkering it is hard to stop. By this I mean that I have watched some shooters take a few shots, turn a few screws, take a few more shots, then repeat the process of adjusting the gun. This can only hurt your focus on the shooting process. If this is you, find a good smith and have the trigger smoothed out, then shoot it.
Now to trigger weight. I get this question a lot, " What trigger weight do you shoot" Well the straight dope is this. I shoot a trigger heavy enough that:
1) I can control it, get now accidental shots and am able to start and stop the "triggering process" even if it has started.
2) I can feel my finger on the trigger blade given the shooting weather conditions.
3) it is consistant.
These are in no order of importance. With reguard to weather, The capilaries in the finger are small, and being a long way from the heart will tend to lose blood flow faster in cooler temps. So I do make adjustments to trigger weight based on the weather, which allows me to feel the trigger blade.
For example in Japan WC 1990 something the shooting venue was on a hillside and very cold, feeling the trigger was hard, I adjusted the trigger up during dryfiring and in sighter shots until I felt comfortable. I did not have my shooting mit with me. After the match and final a number of us got together to to congratulate Tanyu Kiryakov on his win with a 571 raw score. Iasked him about feeling his trigger and the cold, he said he had to adjust to 80 grams to feel the trigger. Then we all (finalists) realized we had all adjusted our trigger to a heavier weight.
This is a good question. The TOZ is a great pistol and has won more than any other. One can make the case for the Toz's ability to have an inconsistant trigger pull. I have found that the TOZ can be very consistant if you take a few things into account.
First the TOZ internals can be crude, this makes for rough surfaces which can result in trigger let off that feels inconsistant. I like to smooth all the surfaces myself, or you may find a gunsmith with knowledge of the TOZ to do this for you. Once done this will solve a lot of problems. The TOZ has a tendency to like a little more sear engagement that some other free pistols like the Hammerli which is made to a higher degree of quality, think Swiss watch. The ease at which the TOZ can be adjusted is a drawback, I think easy access makes it tempting to soem shooters to tinker.
Once you start tinkering it is hard to stop. By this I mean that I have watched some shooters take a few shots, turn a few screws, take a few more shots, then repeat the process of adjusting the gun. This can only hurt your focus on the shooting process. If this is you, find a good smith and have the trigger smoothed out, then shoot it.
Now to trigger weight. I get this question a lot, " What trigger weight do you shoot" Well the straight dope is this. I shoot a trigger heavy enough that:
1) I can control it, get now accidental shots and am able to start and stop the "triggering process" even if it has started.
2) I can feel my finger on the trigger blade given the shooting weather conditions.
3) it is consistant.
These are in no order of importance. With reguard to weather, The capilaries in the finger are small, and being a long way from the heart will tend to lose blood flow faster in cooler temps. So I do make adjustments to trigger weight based on the weather, which allows me to feel the trigger blade.
For example in Japan WC 1990 something the shooting venue was on a hillside and very cold, feeling the trigger was hard, I adjusted the trigger up during dryfiring and in sighter shots until I felt comfortable. I did not have my shooting mit with me. After the match and final a number of us got together to to congratulate Tanyu Kiryakov on his win with a 571 raw score. Iasked him about feeling his trigger and the cold, he said he had to adjust to 80 grams to feel the trigger. Then we all (finalists) realized we had all adjusted our trigger to a heavier weight.