How likely is the problem my rifle, as opposed to ammo or just me in the following situation:
The ammo is eley sport the purple box with a funky smell.
Today I shot my Anchutz 1807...it has not seen much action as I have been shooting high power for the past couple years. In high power I am shooting expert and flirting with master. I practice with a .22lr upper on my ar-15 lower, and can put together dime size groups at 50 yards on a good day.
So today with the Anshutz...and was creating targets at 50 yards with a dime sized group but out of 10 shots 2 or 3 wacky fliers, like off in the 6 ring. And sometimes the report of round sounded different, and the recoil would feel different, but not every time that happened would the shot be a flier. fliers would happen on called 10's and 9's.
I guess my question is if rimfire ammo can be such a bad lot sometimes or the rifle not like it so much that the fliers can be as bad as I describe.
Obviously, I'm going to try some different ammo, but it could be a week or two before I get something else to feed it.
I get these occasional "fliers" out of the .22lr upper but not as bad, which has a shorter barrel than the anschutz.
I guess I'm rambling. My question is, as a general rule, if the rifle is capable of putting together 5-6 shot groups, does that mean its probably in good shape, and these wacky fliers are either ammo or me?
Is the problem just my ammo or technique?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
-
melchloboo
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:24 pm
Re: Is the problem just my ammo or technique?
As Pat says, Sport isn't the best quality ammo - but to put it into perspective:melchloboo wrote: I guess my question is if rimfire ammo can be such a bad lot sometimes or the rifle not like it so much that the fliers can be as bad as I describe.
during testing last year, I had a couple of batches from one of the top manufacturers that produced 33-38mm groups in my rifle.
Using my "known good batch" of the same brand/grade produced a 13.5mm group in the same rig.
So, YES - even the top grade rimfire ammo CAN be so incompatible with your barrel that it will produce fliers that bad.
Details here: http://forum.stirton.com/index.php/topi ... ng-matters
I will "third" the response that Eley SPORT (US Purple Box) is pretty much the dregs of the production line. Other than intro to target shooting I do not consider it to be a target ammo. This is most likley your problem right there. In fact I can't say as I have ever heard anything good about Purple box SPORT... except that it is pretty cheap.
Try a few of the other players in match ammo (Wolf, SK are both reasonably economical while RWS and Lapua are less so) or if you want to stick with Eley, in the US there is a level called TARGET (10 cents a round) or next up CLUB (14 cents a round) that won't damage your billfold too badly. (you should find that both Wolf and SK have products that also hit those pricepoints.)
The weird thing here is that TARGET in the US is apparently marketed as SPORT in a green box outside of the US. Figure that one out.
Bottom line, the rifle is likely fine. I would try a few different better grades and lots of ammo in it before I started to suspect the barrel was the problem.
'Dude
Try a few of the other players in match ammo (Wolf, SK are both reasonably economical while RWS and Lapua are less so) or if you want to stick with Eley, in the US there is a level called TARGET (10 cents a round) or next up CLUB (14 cents a round) that won't damage your billfold too badly. (you should find that both Wolf and SK have products that also hit those pricepoints.)
The weird thing here is that TARGET in the US is apparently marketed as SPORT in a green box outside of the US. Figure that one out.
Bottom line, the rifle is likely fine. I would try a few different better grades and lots of ammo in it before I started to suspect the barrel was the problem.
'Dude
-
little_doodie
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:12 am
- Location: Easton, ma
-
melchloboo
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:24 pm
I got to thinking more about this, then poking around.
It appears that the Wolf rimfire match ammo is manufactured by SK. I cannot pull out the exact details but there is a very close relationship there.
Anyhow, from the looks of it:
Wolf Match Target = SK Jagd Standard Plus->roughly 10 cents per round
Wolf Match Extra = SK Jagd Rifle Match-> 13 to 16 cents per round depending on where you buy.
The Eley line is running a little higher:
Eley Target -> 10 to 13 cents per round
Eley Club -> 14 to 17 cents per round
Just a little food for thought, regardless of what you buy you are still under $10 for a box of 50. So long as you are not shooting semi-auto still pretty economical entertainment. (and I remember when 22LR was just over a penny a shot)
'Dude
It appears that the Wolf rimfire match ammo is manufactured by SK. I cannot pull out the exact details but there is a very close relationship there.
Anyhow, from the looks of it:
Wolf Match Target = SK Jagd Standard Plus->roughly 10 cents per round
Wolf Match Extra = SK Jagd Rifle Match-> 13 to 16 cents per round depending on where you buy.
The Eley line is running a little higher:
Eley Target -> 10 to 13 cents per round
Eley Club -> 14 to 17 cents per round
Just a little food for thought, regardless of what you buy you are still under $10 for a box of 50. So long as you are not shooting semi-auto still pretty economical entertainment. (and I remember when 22LR was just over a penny a shot)
'Dude
-
SocorranThunder
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 7:16 pm
- Location: Socorro, NM
I shoot Wolf Match Target, or Lapua Standard Plus for practice, and Eley Red for competitions.
Someone gave me some purple Eley Sport to try out once. It was at a prone shoot, and I alternated the Eley Sport with the Eley Red every target... the Sport was disappointing, especially compared with Eley Red. I love Lapua Standard Plus- I recommend that and it's not as expensive as good Eley.
And Wolf Match Target is the exact same thing. I consider it interchangeable with Standard Plus Lapua.
I haven't shot anything besides Wolf, Lapua, or Eley in...years.
Definitely get some better ammo. I'm sure that's most of the problem.
Someone gave me some purple Eley Sport to try out once. It was at a prone shoot, and I alternated the Eley Sport with the Eley Red every target... the Sport was disappointing, especially compared with Eley Red. I love Lapua Standard Plus- I recommend that and it's not as expensive as good Eley.
And Wolf Match Target is the exact same thing. I consider it interchangeable with Standard Plus Lapua.
I haven't shot anything besides Wolf, Lapua, or Eley in...years.
Definitely get some better ammo. I'm sure that's most of the problem.
-
melchloboo
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:24 pm
Let's see since i am fairly new, I guess once you've checked the weather radar, barometric pressure, feet above sea level, humidity, temperature, time of sunrise and the mood of the guy at the range adjusted to your core temperature, it must be the Ammo !
I use Tenex and Laqpua X-Act both really really tight.
I use Tenex and Laqpua X-Act both really really tight.
Q. How do you define "really quite tight"?rstriano wrote:I use Tenex and Laqpua X-Act both really really tight.
A. By testing a number of batches against each other under identical (preferably wind free) conditions you can determine which produces the smallest groups. This gives you a real measure of how tight the ammo groups.rstriano wrote: What's batch testing and how would you do that?
I am new at this and just buy 500 rounds at a time to practice at the range 50 yds.
Usually it's done from a rest or with the rifle clamped in some way to maintain a constant point of aim and repeatable recoil from shot to shot and batch to batch.
Additionally, messing with the torque of the bedding bolts is supposed to alter the grouping ability of ammo, as is using a "tuner" of some description.
If your rifle is shooting well already, then this is a can of worms that's probably best left unopened...
However, one day I guarantee you WILL buy some ammo that just won't perform at all in your rifle and you'll wonder what you're doing wrong - and the answer will be: "nothing, you bought the wrong batch".
Keeping a shooting diary might help you recognize when this happens.
Before i started shooting, i read a book by a cometeitive pellet shooter and follow her routine.
I am not sure how you measure groups but i shoot 5 at each bull open sights at 50 yards my worst groups measure 1/2 inch from the outside edge of one hole to the outside edge of the furthest hole. My best groups measure less than 1/4 inch.
With my scope on the rifle at 25 yards 1/8 inch and 50 yards 1/8 to 1/4.
I have been shooting for three months. I can only shoot sitting at my range i rest on a front bag. How am i doing?
I don't know any shooters. Can't wait till warm weather so i can shoot prone, kneeling and standing, which i know will be all new and i will need "groups therapy" once i start practicing that.
Thanks for your help.
I am not sure how you measure groups but i shoot 5 at each bull open sights at 50 yards my worst groups measure 1/2 inch from the outside edge of one hole to the outside edge of the furthest hole. My best groups measure less than 1/4 inch.
With my scope on the rifle at 25 yards 1/8 inch and 50 yards 1/8 to 1/4.
I have been shooting for three months. I can only shoot sitting at my range i rest on a front bag. How am i doing?
I don't know any shooters. Can't wait till warm weather so i can shoot prone, kneeling and standing, which i know will be all new and i will need "groups therapy" once i start practicing that.
Thanks for your help.
Sounds like you're already pretty far down the "testing" road - one of my colleagues tests his rifle/ammo using a scope and a benchrest style rest and back bag.
I suppose the thing is that if a batch of ammo WON'T group with a scope and rest, then it's not likely to improve with open sights and a sling...
One thing I'm curious about is how you are measuring the groups - 1/8" is smaller than the diameter of the bullet if you're measuring "outside edge to outside edge".
5 shots per diagram is also a little low - Eley would use 10 shot groups to give you and idea which batches to reject and then 40 shot groups to make your selection from. The Eley Test Range record group for 40 shots is 13.90mm (according to their website) but that's with the rifle clamped - it's possible that better groups might be achieved from the shoulder or using some "free recoil" type rest.
Some rifles are also less fussy about ammo than others.
I suppose the thing is that if a batch of ammo WON'T group with a scope and rest, then it's not likely to improve with open sights and a sling...
One thing I'm curious about is how you are measuring the groups - 1/8" is smaller than the diameter of the bullet if you're measuring "outside edge to outside edge".
5 shots per diagram is also a little low - Eley would use 10 shot groups to give you and idea which batches to reject and then 40 shot groups to make your selection from. The Eley Test Range record group for 40 shots is 13.90mm (according to their website) but that's with the rifle clamped - it's possible that better groups might be achieved from the shoulder or using some "free recoil" type rest.
Some rifles are also less fussy about ammo than others.
I have some shot groups that are 4mm and get as big as 8mm. That measurement if from widest diameter of the entire hole the bullets are making. 4mm is the best i have ever done looks like all 5 bullets went through 1 1/2 the size of a bull with only one shot taken on it.
Because all i did was read a book by Launa Meille and then go to an indoor range every weekend by myself i have nothing to compare this to. I watch ISSF on youtube and it seems they hit the smalles center ringe every time. That is insanely great marksmanship.
Hey, I just bought a March scope and can't find 34mm bases for the Anschutz rifle. Does anyone know where i can find 34mm high bases at 3/8 for the mount on my action?
Thank you all so much for the information you are giving me.
Because all i did was read a book by Launa Meille and then go to an indoor range every weekend by myself i have nothing to compare this to. I watch ISSF on youtube and it seems they hit the smalles center ringe every time. That is insanely great marksmanship.
Hey, I just bought a March scope and can't find 34mm bases for the Anschutz rifle. Does anyone know where i can find 34mm high bases at 3/8 for the mount on my action?
Thank you all so much for the information you are giving me.
You're doing well getting 5-shot groups smaller than the diameter of a 22 bullet (.177 airgun pellets are 4.5mm, .22 are about 5.6mm I think).
Anyway the point I was making about batch testing was that that is really the only benefit of tenex - eley match is pretty much the same ammunition but half the price.
Rob.
Anyway the point I was making about batch testing was that that is really the only benefit of tenex - eley match is pretty much the same ammunition but half the price.
Rob.
Just to echo Rob's point:
we are lucky to have the Eley Test Range just up the road (well, 100 miles up the road) where you get to compare up to 20 batches of Tenex "side by side" in one session.
During one visit, I once slipped in 10 rounds of a batch of Match, that had been performing well for me through the summer season, as a reference. The resulting group was smaller than some of the Tenex groups but not as small as others. Around 17mm if I remember correctly for the Match - somewhere in the middle of the pack in relation to the other batches of Tenex.
So the conclusion that I have drawn is that:
Some batches of Match will outperform some batches of Tenex IN MY BARREL - and without testing you can't really predict which batches will perform well and which won't.
Knowing what Muzzle Velocity suits your barrel might help.
YMMV.
we are lucky to have the Eley Test Range just up the road (well, 100 miles up the road) where you get to compare up to 20 batches of Tenex "side by side" in one session.
During one visit, I once slipped in 10 rounds of a batch of Match, that had been performing well for me through the summer season, as a reference. The resulting group was smaller than some of the Tenex groups but not as small as others. Around 17mm if I remember correctly for the Match - somewhere in the middle of the pack in relation to the other batches of Tenex.
So the conclusion that I have drawn is that:
Some batches of Match will outperform some batches of Tenex IN MY BARREL - and without testing you can't really predict which batches will perform well and which won't.
Knowing what Muzzle Velocity suits your barrel might help.
YMMV.