One of my kids shoots good scores in air rifle and smallbore but not to the higher standard as some. Has compeated against a couple of people in the past who are now at the ellite level and shot better than them. Has the desire and dreams of being the best. What are we missing ? How can a person go from a average score one year and then be only dropping a couple of points the next? Is there camps or somewhere they can go to twick position or whatever is needed ?
Thanks!
How to get to next level
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
To give a good answer, we could use some average scores shot by your son. That can point to what he might need to concentrate on.
The one camp that comes to mind is Advanced Camp. I can't remember if it's run by the NRA or USAS, but it is a top notch camp staffed by top notch coaches. It's either in Minnesota or Vermont.
In my more general thoughts on the matter, it often comes down to the amount of quality practice and quality competition performances a shooter gets in. We love to talk up quality over quantity, but it's the shooters that get more range time that often excel.
I'll elaborate more later when I'm not typing on an iPod.
The one camp that comes to mind is Advanced Camp. I can't remember if it's run by the NRA or USAS, but it is a top notch camp staffed by top notch coaches. It's either in Minnesota or Vermont.
In my more general thoughts on the matter, it often comes down to the amount of quality practice and quality competition performances a shooter gets in. We love to talk up quality over quantity, but it's the shooters that get more range time that often excel.
I'll elaborate more later when I'm not typing on an iPod.
The smallbore rifle camp in Vermont is indeed a great camp. It is run by Marcus Raab of the NRA with help from Paul Davis & Maaaaargret Langford (Yeah, there's a joke in there) ... Contact Marcus at the NRA. It is usually an invite camp (limited numbers) but even intermediate shooters are accepted & improved. These folks live to improve kids shooting abilities ... all are great folk.
The CMP air rifle camps in the summer are good as well.
Paul Davis will hire out to do smaller smallbore camps, usually 2-3 day affairs over holiday weekends. (He lives in Sou' Carolina)
One of the great alltime air rifle camps is one that is done by Bob Foth of USA Shooting (in Colorado Springs). He is now the paralympic coach, so you have to fit in around the competition schedule. His is termed a "Pairs Clinic", and for a reason. To get the most out of this camp the shooter should have a coach or parent attend with the shooter.
Bob and Paul both are not only teaching and making recommendations to the shooters, they also instruct the coaches on what they should be looking for during practices & matches.
I've worked with getting these coaches/camps to NM or sending kids to the advanced camp. I'd recommend any and all if possible.
Also, never forget that this all needs lots of practice and LOTS of competition to improve. Hit all the USAS PTOs, NRA matches & CMP events that you can afford to.
Oh ... also in the camps .... the shooter needs to listen, take (lots of good) notes and be willing to (REALLY!!) try some new things, if they already "know it all" and are not willing to change what they are doing, their scores cannot change either.
Turn off the cells in class.......
Where are you located? There are some really great clubs that offer camps as well.
The CMP air rifle camps in the summer are good as well.
Paul Davis will hire out to do smaller smallbore camps, usually 2-3 day affairs over holiday weekends. (He lives in Sou' Carolina)
One of the great alltime air rifle camps is one that is done by Bob Foth of USA Shooting (in Colorado Springs). He is now the paralympic coach, so you have to fit in around the competition schedule. His is termed a "Pairs Clinic", and for a reason. To get the most out of this camp the shooter should have a coach or parent attend with the shooter.
Bob and Paul both are not only teaching and making recommendations to the shooters, they also instruct the coaches on what they should be looking for during practices & matches.
I've worked with getting these coaches/camps to NM or sending kids to the advanced camp. I'd recommend any and all if possible.
Also, never forget that this all needs lots of practice and LOTS of competition to improve. Hit all the USAS PTOs, NRA matches & CMP events that you can afford to.
Oh ... also in the camps .... the shooter needs to listen, take (lots of good) notes and be willing to (REALLY!!) try some new things, if they already "know it all" and are not willing to change what they are doing, their scores cannot change either.
Turn off the cells in class.......
Where are you located? There are some really great clubs that offer camps as well.
-
parentoftwoshooters
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:26 pm
next level
To give more info in which I shouldve is. The oldest is in college and shooting on a team. Average is 582 air, smallbore 568. Was a sporter shooter until going to college. Just wants to get to next level and seems that some people are so so and then all of a sudden they are great a year later.
Other child is in 2nd yr of shooting sporter and is doing great, highest 543/600 on paper targets. Just shot his first precision air rifle match at a college invt. shot a 558 at one and a 564 at another. All in one night.
Not worried about the yougest to much but my oldest is a junior and feels its slipping a way a little and we cant figuer out what to do. I did build a range in a shop I have and it has 3 back stops. The kids practice all summer. Need guidance to get to the oldest to be in the 590's in air (398's). Thats why a camp or a coach who knows how to get most out of kid.
Thanks to all for info.
Other child is in 2nd yr of shooting sporter and is doing great, highest 543/600 on paper targets. Just shot his first precision air rifle match at a college invt. shot a 558 at one and a 564 at another. All in one night.
Not worried about the yougest to much but my oldest is a junior and feels its slipping a way a little and we cant figuer out what to do. I did build a range in a shop I have and it has 3 back stops. The kids practice all summer. Need guidance to get to the oldest to be in the 590's in air (398's). Thats why a camp or a coach who knows how to get most out of kid.
Thanks to all for info.
Parentof2 ...
For what it's worth, here is an opinion.
Your oldest is shooting at a pretty high level now. Since it ain't 600's there is room for improvement, of course.
From my perspective with a few shooters at that level, your son is on a cusp. He has the skills, physical tweaks can help a little, but now it's a mental game.
Some suggestions?:
1) The "Ways of the Rifle" and "Air Rifle Shooting" should be like textbooks to him ... studied over & over again
2) He should probably have Lanny Bassham's tapes on his i-pod or MP3 player ... listen to it many times
3) Have him find out if his school has a sports psychologist & begin a program with them
4) Next time he's at the OTC have him go talk to Dave & get the USOC "Sport Psychology Mental Training Manual" .... Study it ... if he can get the Coach guide too (Maybe his collegiate coach can get these for him)
5) Hopefully he makes matches like Winter Airgun, R&P Nationals where he meets others & interacts with them ... hanging around the other winners (yes, he's one too) helps a whole lot .... does not have to be his collegiate teammates.
Nothing wrong with him chatting with other coaches as well. He's walked a long path to where he is now and he really is near the top ... he really should believe that he can get there, because he can.
Well ... that's a ramble ... tell him good luck & good shooting from me!
For what it's worth, here is an opinion.
Your oldest is shooting at a pretty high level now. Since it ain't 600's there is room for improvement, of course.
From my perspective with a few shooters at that level, your son is on a cusp. He has the skills, physical tweaks can help a little, but now it's a mental game.
Some suggestions?:
1) The "Ways of the Rifle" and "Air Rifle Shooting" should be like textbooks to him ... studied over & over again
2) He should probably have Lanny Bassham's tapes on his i-pod or MP3 player ... listen to it many times
3) Have him find out if his school has a sports psychologist & begin a program with them
4) Next time he's at the OTC have him go talk to Dave & get the USOC "Sport Psychology Mental Training Manual" .... Study it ... if he can get the Coach guide too (Maybe his collegiate coach can get these for him)
5) Hopefully he makes matches like Winter Airgun, R&P Nationals where he meets others & interacts with them ... hanging around the other winners (yes, he's one too) helps a whole lot .... does not have to be his collegiate teammates.
Nothing wrong with him chatting with other coaches as well. He's walked a long path to where he is now and he really is near the top ... he really should believe that he can get there, because he can.
Well ... that's a ramble ... tell him good luck & good shooting from me!
-
parentoftwoshooters
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:26 pm
Thanks jhmartin.
Great info. I do appreciate it.
I know there are a bunch of shooters in college for example who are good shooters who could be great if they had someone who would take them and work with them on the things you mentioned. She has come a long ways in a short time and is still learning the ins and outs of it all as are we.
Thanks Again to all for the infomation.
Great info. I do appreciate it.
I know there are a bunch of shooters in college for example who are good shooters who could be great if they had someone who would take them and work with them on the things you mentioned. She has come a long ways in a short time and is still learning the ins and outs of it all as are we.
Thanks Again to all for the infomation.
-
1813benny
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:03 pm
- Location: state of total consciousness
- Contact:
Have him seek out champion level shooters and ask for advise. What is also important is to associate and train with champion level shooters as it provides unconscious motivation.
Last edited by 1813benny on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Levergun59
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 am
- Location: Silver Lake WI
I'm assuming this is 3 or 4P. You have to break down the scores at each position. If standing is a problem area, and it is usually an ongoing battle, then I suggest you should dig up as much info as possible. There are a lot of variables in the way people shoot this position, probably as many ways as body types and flexibility of all the individuals. They each develop their own style. David Tubbs is one of the best standing shooters in the country, yet his body position and his mechanics are unique, but they work for him. He works his position relentlessly and consistantly and shoots huge scores, but if I told you he coils his body and works the target from left to right, you would think that this just can't work. It's the same with all the Olympic shooters.
I would suggest you check out as many coaches as you can. Little tips can make a big difference. Hope this helps.
Chris
I would suggest you check out as many coaches as you can. Little tips can make a big difference. Hope this helps.
Chris
-
Levergun59
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 am
- Location: Silver Lake WI
I'm assuming this is 3 or 4P. You have to break down the scores at each position. If standing is a problem area, and it is usually an ongoing battle, then I suggest you should dig up as much info as possible. There are a lot of variables in the way people shoot this position, probably as many ways as body types and flexibility of all the individuals. They each develop their own style. David Tubbs is one of the best standing shooters in the country, yet his body position and his mechanics are unique, but they work for him. He works his position relentlessly and consistantly and shoots huge scores, but if I told you he coils his body and works the target from left to right, you would think that this just can't work. It's the same with all the Olympic shooters.
I would suggest you check out as many coaches as you can. Little tips can make a big difference. Hope this helps.
Chris
I would suggest you check out as many coaches as you can. Little tips can make a big difference. Hope this helps.
Chris
-
melchloboo
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:24 pm
'twoshooters
There are a few things to consider here. First some generalities: 95% of all the winning is done by 5% of all the competitiors. When you hit the elite levels there is an awful lot to the idea of believing you are a champion, not that you just want to be a champion.
As has been mentioned get some of Lanny Bassham's stuff. Go to http://mentalmanagement.ipower.com/ and dig around in the products until you find "With Winning in Mind" this is pretty much book 1 in the techniques Lanny sets down to overcome mental barriers. Get both the book and audio versions would be my recommendation. Now that was the easy part.
It has been mentioned that your daughter just needs to seek out champions and ask their advise. Easier said than done, you ususally have to travel to where champions hang out and while most top level shooters are willing to talk with newer and rising shooters at some point a shooter needs more fine tuning than can be dispensed in a 10 minute conversation after the shooting is done. Referring to the camp environment for a moment, when you are at the upper levels of a shooting or most other sports, there is just as much if not more coaching that takes place over a snack in the dining hall before lights out as coaching that takes place on the firing line or other respective performance venue.
Go back to the opening statement about 5% of competititors do 95% of the winning. This also holds for collegiate teams, there about about 5 teams consistently at the top of the collegiate sectional standings and often you will see members of those teams are the individual champions or standing on the podium. Being on a team that expects to win and has winners helps build both mental image and also provides the coaching and cross pollination of ideas that a shooter needs to make the jump to the next level. Unfortunately, in her junior year, unless she is already at one of these schools, changing schools would likely very difficult.
Looking at some of the camp suggestions, I have heard good things about Marcus Raab and can vouch for Bob Foth personally. These camps may or may not be accessible to your daughter. Another thing to consider would be the USAS Regional Training Centers http://www.usashooting.com/regionalTraining.php. While I don't know anything personally about the specific programs, when I was a junior several decades back, David Kimes (LAR&R) was one of my heros.
It is not uncommon for the AMU to run clinics somehow attached to major matches. You hear of them being run periodically, you would have to contact the AMU to find out specifics like when and where.
The next thing to ask is what is the commitment past college? Is your daughter interested in joining the army and trying to get a slot at the AMU? I am not sure if there are any resident athlete programs at the OTC, if you track down Bob Foth (or anyone else involved in rifle) there might you can ask.
This is a little rambly but qualifies as my two cents
Best to you and your athletes
'Dude
There are a few things to consider here. First some generalities: 95% of all the winning is done by 5% of all the competitiors. When you hit the elite levels there is an awful lot to the idea of believing you are a champion, not that you just want to be a champion.
As has been mentioned get some of Lanny Bassham's stuff. Go to http://mentalmanagement.ipower.com/ and dig around in the products until you find "With Winning in Mind" this is pretty much book 1 in the techniques Lanny sets down to overcome mental barriers. Get both the book and audio versions would be my recommendation. Now that was the easy part.
It has been mentioned that your daughter just needs to seek out champions and ask their advise. Easier said than done, you ususally have to travel to where champions hang out and while most top level shooters are willing to talk with newer and rising shooters at some point a shooter needs more fine tuning than can be dispensed in a 10 minute conversation after the shooting is done. Referring to the camp environment for a moment, when you are at the upper levels of a shooting or most other sports, there is just as much if not more coaching that takes place over a snack in the dining hall before lights out as coaching that takes place on the firing line or other respective performance venue.
Go back to the opening statement about 5% of competititors do 95% of the winning. This also holds for collegiate teams, there about about 5 teams consistently at the top of the collegiate sectional standings and often you will see members of those teams are the individual champions or standing on the podium. Being on a team that expects to win and has winners helps build both mental image and also provides the coaching and cross pollination of ideas that a shooter needs to make the jump to the next level. Unfortunately, in her junior year, unless she is already at one of these schools, changing schools would likely very difficult.
Looking at some of the camp suggestions, I have heard good things about Marcus Raab and can vouch for Bob Foth personally. These camps may or may not be accessible to your daughter. Another thing to consider would be the USAS Regional Training Centers http://www.usashooting.com/regionalTraining.php. While I don't know anything personally about the specific programs, when I was a junior several decades back, David Kimes (LAR&R) was one of my heros.
It is not uncommon for the AMU to run clinics somehow attached to major matches. You hear of them being run periodically, you would have to contact the AMU to find out specifics like when and where.
The next thing to ask is what is the commitment past college? Is your daughter interested in joining the army and trying to get a slot at the AMU? I am not sure if there are any resident athlete programs at the OTC, if you track down Bob Foth (or anyone else involved in rifle) there might you can ask.
This is a little rambly but qualifies as my two cents
Best to you and your athletes
'Dude
'twoshooters
One final thought here:
You might be on top of this but I will state it explicitly,
Elite level shooting implies to me the goal is US Shooting Team and ISSF competition. To that end come summertime you need to make sure you focus on the USAS Final Tryouts. This year in Ft. Benning GA, July 2-9.
Many folks key on Camp Perry however the road to international competition is paved through Ft. Benning GA not Port Clinton OH. If funding says you can only do one: Ft. Benning wins.
'Dude
One final thought here:
You might be on top of this but I will state it explicitly,
Elite level shooting implies to me the goal is US Shooting Team and ISSF competition. To that end come summertime you need to make sure you focus on the USAS Final Tryouts. This year in Ft. Benning GA, July 2-9.
Many folks key on Camp Perry however the road to international competition is paved through Ft. Benning GA not Port Clinton OH. If funding says you can only do one: Ft. Benning wins.
'Dude
Finally have the time to elaborate my thoughts.
I have come to a bit of a zen realization since finishing my time on my college rifle team: I know how to shoot a 10, so just do it. I don't think I could have come to the understanding of this simple thought that I have now, back when I was practicing 20 hours a week. When you practice on a very regular basis, your mind gets cluttered with ideas that just get in the way in my opinion. I watch the current team members practice (570-580 shooters) and they pick the gun up, fiddle with their support hand, support elbow, wiggle into position, breathe 16 times slowly, set their cheek pressure 4 times, then take the shot over 30s after picking the rifle up. I have found success both in myself and in coaching others to remember one's position, pick the rifle up, and shoot the dang 10. All the wiggling is wasted physical and mental energy. You either have a position you like, or you don't and you need to work on it.
The drill for this is to allow only one hold per shot for a string of 10 shots and give a 75s limit like a finals. The next string, drop it to 50s, then 25s, and finally get it down to 15s, and maybe once in a while 10s. This reinforces a mental trend of shooting a 10 every time you pick up the rifle, eliminating any stray thought of having to reject a shot. The shooter needs to have 100% confidence every time they pick up the rifle for a shot.
That same drill can be applied for the 568ish smallbore scores, but at that level, odds are the position break down is 98s prone, 91s standing, 95s kneeling, give or take a point here or there. With that breakdown, there are 4 free points in prone alone. With electronic targets at most collegiate matches, prone should be one point down at most, and that should be thought of as a bad day. Prone is all about discipline in the fundamentals and shot selection. I haven't really found a good drill for this other than grinding out the 10 shot strings.
Standing is where the most points can be made. Getting to a 95 average (that's alternating 10s and 9s) gains another 8 points. This is more of a mental barrier than anything. When you say shoot 95s, that sounds difficult, but alternating 10s and 9s, that's not so bad. In a group training setting, seeing who can put together the longest string of 10s would be a good drill. You can also see how many shots it takes to get to a set number of tens. In this case, see how many shots it takes you to get 5 tens. Once you are regularly doing it within 10 shots, then got to 6 tens, 7 tens, etc.
Kneeling can be tricky. I've found kneeling to be a mental trap after standing. You can hold forever and the hold looks like prone after shooting standing. I solved this personally by taking my time in kneeling (I once took 55min for 20 shots, and it got me 98 99, no one was laughing then, but my foot wasn't too happy). Kneeling often has a lot of very center 10s combined with weak 9s, if not 8s. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground in my experience. It's just a matter of finding the difference between the good shots and the not so good shots. Those little cues that you should reset.
On a little more quirky note of kneeling, I shot a number of local prone matches (both 1200s and 1600s) all kneeling. After that, 20 shots is nothing during a half course, and it's great practice. At your kid's level, they're likely winning said matches, so it would be a way to make them more competitive for him and the others.
Finally, you have to apply what you learn in practice in competition, and not just any competition, competitions where not ding what you learn causes you to not place as well. I know, don't base your performance on how you place, blah blah blah. That has it's place too in goal setting and judging one's performance, but you have to shoot against people who will beat you to push you.
My parents are both accomplished shooters and growing up, their plan for me was to put me on the line with very good shooters. Then match by match, I'd see what scores needed to be shot and think, oh, that's how it's supposed to be, ok, I can do that. Well then you reach the top, then what? In running, chasing someone down is much easier than keeping that same pace by one's self. I guess being in the presence of greatness makes greatness contagious (with a little work).
I have come to a bit of a zen realization since finishing my time on my college rifle team: I know how to shoot a 10, so just do it. I don't think I could have come to the understanding of this simple thought that I have now, back when I was practicing 20 hours a week. When you practice on a very regular basis, your mind gets cluttered with ideas that just get in the way in my opinion. I watch the current team members practice (570-580 shooters) and they pick the gun up, fiddle with their support hand, support elbow, wiggle into position, breathe 16 times slowly, set their cheek pressure 4 times, then take the shot over 30s after picking the rifle up. I have found success both in myself and in coaching others to remember one's position, pick the rifle up, and shoot the dang 10. All the wiggling is wasted physical and mental energy. You either have a position you like, or you don't and you need to work on it.
The drill for this is to allow only one hold per shot for a string of 10 shots and give a 75s limit like a finals. The next string, drop it to 50s, then 25s, and finally get it down to 15s, and maybe once in a while 10s. This reinforces a mental trend of shooting a 10 every time you pick up the rifle, eliminating any stray thought of having to reject a shot. The shooter needs to have 100% confidence every time they pick up the rifle for a shot.
That same drill can be applied for the 568ish smallbore scores, but at that level, odds are the position break down is 98s prone, 91s standing, 95s kneeling, give or take a point here or there. With that breakdown, there are 4 free points in prone alone. With electronic targets at most collegiate matches, prone should be one point down at most, and that should be thought of as a bad day. Prone is all about discipline in the fundamentals and shot selection. I haven't really found a good drill for this other than grinding out the 10 shot strings.
Standing is where the most points can be made. Getting to a 95 average (that's alternating 10s and 9s) gains another 8 points. This is more of a mental barrier than anything. When you say shoot 95s, that sounds difficult, but alternating 10s and 9s, that's not so bad. In a group training setting, seeing who can put together the longest string of 10s would be a good drill. You can also see how many shots it takes to get to a set number of tens. In this case, see how many shots it takes you to get 5 tens. Once you are regularly doing it within 10 shots, then got to 6 tens, 7 tens, etc.
Kneeling can be tricky. I've found kneeling to be a mental trap after standing. You can hold forever and the hold looks like prone after shooting standing. I solved this personally by taking my time in kneeling (I once took 55min for 20 shots, and it got me 98 99, no one was laughing then, but my foot wasn't too happy). Kneeling often has a lot of very center 10s combined with weak 9s, if not 8s. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground in my experience. It's just a matter of finding the difference between the good shots and the not so good shots. Those little cues that you should reset.
On a little more quirky note of kneeling, I shot a number of local prone matches (both 1200s and 1600s) all kneeling. After that, 20 shots is nothing during a half course, and it's great practice. At your kid's level, they're likely winning said matches, so it would be a way to make them more competitive for him and the others.
Finally, you have to apply what you learn in practice in competition, and not just any competition, competitions where not ding what you learn causes you to not place as well. I know, don't base your performance on how you place, blah blah blah. That has it's place too in goal setting and judging one's performance, but you have to shoot against people who will beat you to push you.
My parents are both accomplished shooters and growing up, their plan for me was to put me on the line with very good shooters. Then match by match, I'd see what scores needed to be shot and think, oh, that's how it's supposed to be, ok, I can do that. Well then you reach the top, then what? In running, chasing someone down is much easier than keeping that same pace by one's self. I guess being in the presence of greatness makes greatness contagious (with a little work).
Last edited by Soupy44 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
silentfury214
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:07 am
- Location: Tennessee
-
parentoftwoshooters
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:26 pm