Considering AP ?

[toddinjax]

Hi all,

I'm considering a target pistol, pretty much just for (serious) fun; challenging myself, getting better by building skill rather than buying $$$ gear. I've been shooting AR for 2 months but now I'm weighing my options.
So, how should I put this... is 10 meter pistol just impossibly difficult? Go ahead and tell me the truth, don't sugar coat it. I understand that a pistol is less accurate than a rifle but is it also much more difficult to hold on point? I know AP target is a little bigger than AR - is that because of the lessened accuracy of a pistol vs rifle or the physical challenge of holding the pistol.
I'm 49 years, 20/20 vision with my (thick) eye glasses. How do you aim a BLACK notch and post sight at a dot in a BLACK circle?
If I do end up shooting AP, it won't be a $2000 PCP. I've read mostly good thongs about the IZZY 46M and a few bad things. Would a Weihrauch HW75 be a good tool for my situation, that is, home shooting not international competition. I want a gun to shoot not to repair or tweak/modify, nice trigger, built to last, least maintenance and accurate.
Is there a comparable book to Ways of the Rifle for target pistol?

Thanks for all replies.

[AK Pistol]

Air Pistols are just as accurate as air rifles but are more difficult to hold still.

[Brian M]

AR and AP are better than 90% the same ~ it's the mental aspect that makes up that 90%.

For the sights, you use a sub-6 hold where both the front and rear sights are below the black of the bull. Simple. No books that I'm aware of, but the mechanics are simple. Stand in a manor that's comfortable, raise the pistol till the sights are aligned and let the trigger break without moving the sights. What's comfortable is 100% individual... it's NOT like AP in that way where there's a very well documented "base" position.

And I'd take the IZH46m over that other one you mentioned unless you're using it specifically to train with as a cheap center-fire replacement. The ONLY negative of the IZH (I've put ~16,000 rounds through mine before buying an LP10) is that it's nose heavy. The grip will need to be customized to your hand, but this isn't a negative, just a fact. In all the rounds I put through mine, I had one issue of a screw that stripped ~ it cost ~$30 for the 2 replacement parts.

[RandomShotz]

I don't know what bad things you've heard about the Izzy. The biggest knock I've come across is that grip is way too big. I have spent quite a bit of time with a Dremel, sandpaper and some wood filler getting the grip to fit. I now have a gun that fits my hand perfectly and I learned quite a bit about grips while I was making it. I bought mine a few months ago from Pyramyd Air, but if I had known about Mac1 airguns at the time I would have bought his upgraded piece for a few beans more:

https://mac1airgunstore.com/mac1_airgun ... tails.html

The trigger on the Izzy is adjustable for position, weight and overtravel and is really impressive. It can safely be set quite a bit lighter than the 500g minimum for AP competition, if you are so inclined.

The HW 75 is a nice gun - years ago, I bought a P1 which is the Beeman equivalent - but it is not a target gun and the trigger does not even come close. Also, it is a spring piston gun that does not have any mechanism for counteracting the "recoil" from the spring movement. That makes it good for pistol practice, but I don't think it can ever shoot off hand as accurately as an Izzy.

IMHO, YMMV and all that.

Roger

[toddinjax]

Thanks, keep em' coming. Thanks especially to Randomshots for the 'mac izzy" link; that is enticing.
Airguns of Arizona describes the HW75;

While developing the famous P1 Magnum Air Pistol for Beeman, one early prototype was made as a single stroke pneumatic. Since the intention of the P1 was always to be a spring piston gun, the prototype was put on the shelf. That is, until we found a hole in the market for a mid-priced, highly accurate, firearm style match air pistol. Not only does the HW75 meet the above criteria, but it is also completely recoilless, and is made without any cheap sheet metal, plastic frames (like other brands), or complex mechanisms.

I did read on the web some complaints of hit or miss trigger creep on the 46M and I believe I read very good comments about the HW75 trigger. I'm not arguing mind you, but repeating what I'd read. I'm just gathering info. Thank again to all.

[Tony C.]

is 10 meter pistol just impossibly difficult?

Compare to what? Its all relative, if you wants to shoot nothing but 10s from the get go, I would say yes, however once you overcome some initial diffculties, you'll amaze how fast the progression is.

The basic principles of both rifle and pistol shooting are pretty much the same, and as a rifle shooter you already have knowledge of sight picture; trigger control; follow thru...etc, and don't forget, the 10 ring on the AP targets are much bigger than the AR.

There were a couple of books on pistol marksmanship, a bit outdated but still relevant, you may need to look for them in on-line used book sellers;

Pistol Shooting by Hans Standl
Successful Pistol Shooting by Frank & Paul Leatherdale

The Izzy 46 will be a good AP to start, the grip may need a bit of work to fit your hand, but its all steel and built like a steam engine, it will take you as far as your skills allow, chances are you may want a "better" AP long before that.

[RandomShotz]

Oops. My mistake. I confused the HW75 with the HW45. It is the latter that is the P1 equivalent.

BTW, I just picked up a copy of the Standl book through Abebooks:

http://tinyurl.com/463lnz5

There are a couple of reasonably priced copies available right now if you are interested. My copy only arrived yesterday, so I haven't looked at it much yet. Right at the outset, he discusses gymnastic and aerobic exercise. He also recommends not smoking, but you'll take my pipes when you pry them from my cold dead fingers. I think the rest of the book might be useful, tho...

Roger

[SMBeyer]

AP is definately not impossible! It can be very difficult depending on what your skill level and goals are. But can also be very rewarding when things are going right. Its doubtful you will ever feel that you have mastered AP and and therefor you will always have room for improvement and new goals to set. I believe Kate said it very well on this forum that rifle shooting is a science and pistol shooting is an art. Right now my goals are 570 and/or shooting a match with all 9's or better. I haven't reached this goal yet but am getting closer.

AP are definately as accurate as AR but standing there one handed with absolutely nothing to help you, no boots, no pants, no gloves, no jackets, you might not think that target looks so big! I am not a rifle shooter so I cant speak for them but there is always something to learn about pistol shooting. You have never shot your best score and definately have never shot your worst.

As far as pistols go I started with a Beeman P1 witch as stated above is the spring version of the HW 75. The trigger can be adjusted to be very good. If you think that you might get into match shooting I think the IZH is definately a better choice. I shot a friends IZH and it is what got me into AP which then got me into standard pistol which got me into freepistol. So beware of the domino effect!

Good luck and have fun, Scott

[philip_T]

I also read about the great Izzy, however my Izzy is a disapointment
so far. The grips are easy to modify with a file or dremel, just go slow.
The problem I have had from the very start is the pistol will not always charge with air.
Pump, load, close, then just a click. Two or three tries
later with a new pellet it may fire, but not at normal pressure, it prints low
about 3 inches at 10 meters. Sometimes it feels normal to pump and then
shoots low followed by the try, try, try routine. Then a later development,
after a normal feeling pump, as I close the breech the gun fires blowing out
one or two breech seals. I have not yet been able to fire 30 rounds
without a problem misfire. Take it to a match? Not yet for sure. It may be fixable
but at near $400 I am disapointed. I wish I had bought a HW 45 or 75.

[RandomShotz]

Philip:

If you bought the gun new, send it back. There is no reason that a new Izzy should behave that way.

On the other hand, if you bought it used there might be a simple fix. It may be that the previous owner bobo'd the reassembly because it sounds like what my gun was doing after I had stripped and cleaned it the other day. There are two blocks in the front of the compression cylinder. See this page:

http://www.airgunarena.com/index.php/Di ... structions

The front block is a pivot for the piston linkage; the rear block is the pivot for the cocking lever. If the rear pivot is backwards, i.e., if the angled face is towards the front of the gun, then it will interfere with the full extension of the cocking lever. (Guess how I know.) This may prevent the piston from moving far enough to charge the cylinder and the linkage which lifts the breech block will also fail. The breech block is supposed to pop up into a near vertical position. If it doesn't flip up all the way and opens but stays low then an accidental discharge will blow the seals out.

This is simple to check: cock the gun while inverted and look to see if the cylinder linkage is hitting that block. If it is, then follow the directions for disassembly/reassembly and you should be good to go.

If that isn't it, beats the heck out of me.

Roger

[philip_T]

Thanks, I will check and let you know.

[philip_T]

I decided to let Mac 1 do his tune on my Izzy. He no longer sells the izzy,
but he will still tune them. I talked to him briefly monday (31st) and he said send it for the tune.
Today I did send it.(2nd of feb.) I am hoping the new stainless cylinder and whatever else he does
will make the pistol a reliable shooter.
I will post how it goes.