Question for Eric U.

[tenring]

First I appreciate all you insight and experience you share here as I have learned much and appreciate your help to myself and other.

I think you have considerable experience with the 1813 barreled action and stocks.

I have an 1813 barreled action and 1810 stock. I'm using it to shoot prone. The gun shoots great even with SK standard plus. But the problem I have is getting this thing halfway comfortable to shoot for any considerable amount of time....Ex. cheekrest, hand pressure, difficulty to load...

I tried out a 2013 in the 2313 stock...Wow how it fit like a glove...biggest noticable thing was its ease to reach the port and load and cheek-rest.

What did you do? Should I invest in the Anschutz precise stock for the round action.

Thanks Again for any infor and advise you can offer.

Charles

[Eric U]

Charles,

I shot an 1813 for 25 years. It was quite comfortable to me. Even though I use my own rifle action now, it is still in an 1813 stock.

To me the 1810 would not be a good choice for a prone rifle because of the thick sloping fore-end of the stock. I prefer to have my hand as close to the barrel as I can get it. I personally have never tried a Precise stock. There are a few people who I shoot with that like them. I'm a wood stock guy, so my opinion is prejudiced. I just think wood shoots better. I have no proof. It is just what I like. The most important thing (and much harder to find) is to have a good shooting barreled action, which you already have. You just need to switch stocks.

If the stock you now have is uncomfortable, then move on to something else. If you tried a Precise stock and it fit you well, then that is what you should use. I would try it again before you buy one if you can, just to make sure. That is a lot of money to spend on a stock if it doesn't work out.

Eric U

[tenring]

Thanks Eric for your reply. I might like the 1813 stock or 1913. I just have not been around any to feel out. I do like my 1813 barreled action and feel I'd be sick if I sold it to re-invest in a total new gun. I've been lingering in the for-sale forum for an 1813 or the similar for some time now. I'll do as you say and try the aluminum stock some more. I know there is nothing wrong with the 1813 stock or later. I had my doubts on the 1810 stock for prone, but its what I bought. There is know doubt though that its a solid stock and supports the action well.

Should there have been any difference in the difficultly to reach the loading port? I'm 5'9" and have the original butt-plate on the second line extension mark. Maybe my hand-stop is too far forward. I'm going to start over.

[RobStubbs]

If I might interject, you could equally consider the walther annatomic stock, which is still wood. That will fit the 1813 action (or anything else). These are certainly getting quite popular - and that is the route I'm going down with my 1813, after trying one out in Germany. Unfortunately the popularity means you may well have quite a wait.

Rob.

[justadude]

tenring,

I will back up the notion that the 1810 stock is not a very good prone stock.

I have an 1810 that I loved for position (not really trying to shoot 3P right now). Especially for kneeling and my arms etc I always felt the stock was perfect for my build.

Prone however was a different story, while I could get the 1810 to work it never left me feeling very confident. Hence I clung to my old 1411 for prone, pretty much like a drowning man to a lifering.

Recently, while talking to Eric U about a tuner tube for my prone barrel we were discussing the current trends in the prone position and stock usage. Based on that conversation I dropped my prone barrel into an early 1813 stock and fitted the stock with a MEC Free Postion buttplate. I will not be going back to my 1411. The low foreend and adjustability in the butt appears to be a killer combination for the current state of the prone position.

Just my 2 cents on the topic.

'Dude

[tenring]

Thanks for your feedback.. I'm a newby and like to get as much feedback and experience from others as to try to minimize the frustration.

I came across a deal two days ago and picked up an almost new 1813 barreled acion in an 1811 prone stock. No modern butt-plate though and its still not the 1813 stock. I do have a spare barreled action though. Might even be better than the good one I have.

Shoud the 1811 stock work. Does feel much better and is not near as heavy. What kind of difficultly am I going to have getting a modern butt-plate and getting the length of pull correct? Or should I even worry with that?

Charles

[Eric U]

You absolutely should worry about getting the length of pull correct. I believe it is critical to getting a good prone position. If you take off the plastic buttplate that is standard on the 1811 and replace it with something else, you will almost certainly have to cut off some of the butt. Depending on which buttplate you go with it may or may not have length adjustment capability.

Eric U

[tenring]

yea, having to cutt off some stock was what I was worried about.

Right now with out any spacers its on the long side of perfect. The trigger shoe is pushed forward though... at the moment and I can bring it back a good 1/4 in and should be nice.

Who ever had this gun before had it set to single stage trigger too. Any advise as to what adjustments I need to make to get it back to a nice two-stage? What ever oil was on it is gummed up too. I guess I can soak it in lighter fluid or something similar?

Charles

[Eric U]

Kerosene or similar will take off any gummed up oil on the trigger. Be careful with any kind of flammable solvents...

There is at least one world level shooter who is having great success shooting with a single stage trigger. You might give it a try before you switch it back to two stage. Rumor has it (from Uwe Anschutz) that the 5018 Anschutz trigger set to single stage wears less than one set to two stage. AHG is even selling an "artificial" two stage unit to mount on the 5018 trigger when it is set to single stage mode. I've got one but haven't tried it yet.

Eric U

[tenring]

Yea! got it clean and adjusted to about the minumum it was designed for. Used electric parts cleaner jet spray...Worked well. After it dried I used lighter fluid as a cleaner and mild Lube.

I have a single stage jewel on my BR rimfire rifle. I like it, but after shooting this 5018 trigger I really kinda like the two-stage. Feel like I have a little pre-focus pull warning before it goes bang. Both are nice though as I guess anyone could go either way after they got use to it.

And thoughts on post travel for the follow through? I have it minimized for essentially zero.

Charles

[justadude]

'ring

Here is a link to a discussion on stocks with some pictures I posted a little while back. http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?t=26903

This will give you an idea of how much shorter you can get a xx13 stock compared to a xx11 stock. There are a few other subtle differences there as well that you don't really notice until you put them side to side.

The xx11 stock was a good design for its day and the prone position as it practiced in the 1970s. Back then there was no restriction on the 30 degree forearm angle. The only discussion was a referee or jury member needed to be able to see light under the arm. (I digress) Bottom line, you could not run the butt plate up too far or the stock would drag the ground so adjustablitity was limited there. There was no reason to be able to make it go higher.

OK fast forward three decades, if you look at the top prone shooters, no one is using an xx11 stock and the butt plates are all run up much higher than the old rubber plate would allow. There are a number of reasons for why or what happens but this pushes the rifle forward calling for a reduction in pull length from somewhere else. Having a long stock also hangs the weight of the barrel well out in front of the sling hand which for a 60 shot course of fire can be murderous.

Take the xx13 stock, with the stock short and the butt plate well up you can pull the right arm in and the upper arm is more of a support pillar. Having the rifle back into the position makes loading easier and takes stress off the sling hand. Still you have to tinker with the exact settings to get it to really fit YOU.

Now, with regard to triggers. Please be aware that the first stage on the trigger is not there just to help you focus but is also a safety device. Sear engagement for a singe stage target trigger is close to zero. Really just enough to keep the levers engaged until there is enough presssure on the trigger to get them to separate. If you look at the function of a properly set up two stage the levers are engaged by a good bit. (0.25-0.5mm) until the first stage is taken up. At that point the sear levers really look like to sharp corners resting on each other. There is a slight increase in trigger force required to overcome what is ususally a change in mechanical advantage, the sear releases and bang.

OK with the old single stage triggers there was (is) enough spring tension in the mechanism to insure the sear will engage properly to keep the rifle safe until the shooter WANTS the rifle to go off. There is very little spring tension in the typcial two stage trigger so the insurance mechanism is the extra long engagement required to pull though the first stage.

Bottom line, I personally do not consider a two stage trigger setup to operate as a one stage safe. Others may argue but target guns are touchy anyhow, why deliberately make it worse?

Would two stage set up to operate as a single wear less? Yes, that makes sense, there is less motion in the mechanism.

For prone shooting, either single or two stage will produce excellent scores. For the single stage an old arguement was you could shoot faster because you were not spending time taking up the first stage. This was more important when you were shooting American Prone, outdoors, no cover in windy conditions.

Takeup and backtravel... Takeup is something of personal preference. Some folks shoot with almost zero backtravel, just enough to make sure the trigger is not starting to hit the backtravel stop before it releases. Then there is the school of thought that says no backtravel stop so the trigger finger does not travel back and hit something when the trigger releases thus upsetting the hold on the gun.

There, did i get everything? : )

'Dude

[RobStubbs]

I would probably stick with plenty of backtravel rather than a stop close to the trigger break point. Having watched lots of good rifle shooters pull the trigger, an awful lot seem to yank the thing right back. People with better trigger control still seem to pull through the shot release, they just do it smoother and more slowly. That suggests to me a hard stop is a bad thing as it will disturb the gun for those shooters.

Rob.

[Eric U]

I've got two thoughts on trigger overtravel.

I personally have a lot of overtravel on my rifles. That ensures that I don't come up against any hard stop that could move the rifle after I've pulled through the trigger. I've always done it this way and will likely not change now.

My wife, the pistol shooter, has no overtravel. None. Those guns are even more susceptible to a bump at the back end of the trigger travel. When I tried her pistol, it just seems like I pull trigger, it goes off, and my finger goes nowhere. It doesn't really bump into the trigger stop after the shot because it is already there. Of course, here trigger control is much better than mine...

In my opinion, you probably wouldn't go wrong with either one of these settings. Where you would run into trouble is if you had yours set somewhere in between. The trigger stop set far enough away that you get some overtravel, but close enough that you hit the stop before the bullet is out of the barrel. Even that wouldn't be bad if you did it exactly the same every time. But, if you squeezed it nicely one time and didn't even bump the stop, and next time not so gently jerked the trigger to the stop, the results would be dissatisfying.

Eric U

[Rob H]

Eric

You mentioned "length of pull" being very important in prone could you elaborate a bit on this and explain how you know when its right or close to being right. Maybe what its meant to feel like as well.

Thanks Rob

[Albert B]

I second the request. I am interested to know how topshooters construct a good LOP and the position of the handstop.

This is my experience with LOP:
1st: It is VERY important. (A bad LOP will cause many unexplained'' flyers).
2nd: I define a good LOP as follows:
When you place the buttplate in the shoulder when holding the heel of the rifle, there must be enough room for the buttplate to slide into the shoulder, without pressing against the shoulde.
As you bring the hand to the grip contact between buttplate and shoulder is made and pressure is build. When holding the grip (and shoulders relaxed) there must be sufficient pressure but not so much pressure that the shoulder pushes the butt forward (and the muzzle to the left - righthanded shooter).
At the same time, when relaxing the shoulders, pressure must not become less (and the butt starts sliding downwards in the shoulder).
It is a delicate balance between to much and not enough pressure.
3rd:
In an ideal situation the buttplate and shoulder are positioned exactly square tot the axis of the barrel (very rare). The position depands on the angle your body is to the line of fire. If the body is lying in line with the rifle, the buttplate is turned 'outward' along its vertical axis, when the body is lying in an angle to the rifle the buttplate is turned 'inward'.
4th:
With a good LOP and position of handstop the rifle will move in a perfect vertical line during the shot and when breating (with the lower chest). It will only move sideways after the shot when it falls back and is restrained by the sling.

My 2 eurocents
Albert B
(The Netherlands)

[tenring]

I Third the request. That is something I have never been comfortable with and change the most. but I have only been doing this a year. sooooooo...Im still searching for mine.

[Guest_66]

I used the info given in this article as a good starting point for my own LOP.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek056.html
(Scroll down to the 'Length of Pull' headline)

Also, here is a picture showing an easy way to measure LOP:
http://www.accurateinnovations.com/LOP.html

[Pat McCoy]

The photo in the 6mmbenchrest.com article is very instructive. Notice NO angle in the wrist of the shooting arm. An angle in the wrist shows the lop is incorrect (bending forward to "reach" if lop is long, or bent up to compensate for too short lop).

[Eric U]

The info that German Salazar has on 6mmBR.com, where you place the buttplate on your bicep to get length of pull, is what I use to get a brand new shooter into position for the first time with an adjustable length stock. This is a rough 1st try setting.

For me, I believe that buttplate has to be firm into the shoulder. If you can just let the buttplate slide around in your shoulder your position is too loose. This is more of a function of sling length and hand-stop position than LOP, but LOP is in the mixture. BUT, you need to make sure you aren't so tight in position that the rifle pushes you shoulder back too far, or makes the position so painful that you can't stay in position for very long. It is a balancing act.

Keeping the wrist straight is a nice goal, but is at least partially dependent on what your pistol grip looks like on your rifle. Some simply don't allow a straight wrist if you get a full grip on the gun. Also, how high or low your position is changes the angle that your arm comes into the grip, and affects if you can even get your wrist straight. That said, a straight wrist is the first thing you want to look for in LOP adjustments. My palm is reasonably firm on my pistol grip. If I completely relax my grip on the pistol-grip, my hand doesn't move at all on the grip. It really is a feel thing that I can't explain fully. After you get your buttplate length set, then you set the trigger position (the real LOP...buttplate to trigger). You want your finger to be perpendicular to the trigger shoe as much as possible. Between BP length and trigger shoe position, you want your trigger set up so you can pull it STRAIGHT to the rear without causing the rifle to move when you pull it.

Eric U

[Albert B]

The procedure described by Eric, German Salazar and others is used for prone and standing position. To get the ROUGH LOP for kneeling used the mentioned procedure, then extract aprox. 1/2 inch (10 to 12mm) depanding on bodyshape etc.

Albert B
The Netherlands