New ISSF Finals Format

[gn303]

Just saw the interview of Mr. Anderson who favors the new finals to get more shooters to the RF.
I was curious to see the finals...and I'm disappointed.
This is a step back!
Btw. What happened to Mazetti? He had a pistol/ammo incident, DISCHARGED (?) the gun and then the judges came to check? Is that the normal procedure?
I thought you had to hold the gun downrange until the judges came to check and/or give you other instructions.

[David Levene]

DISCHARGED (?)

Unloaded.

I don't think there was anything "normal" about the final so they probably gave him the benefit of the doubt.

[gn303]

Indeed David, I meant unloaded.
I mixed up the French 'décharger' with the English where it has quite an other meaning. Mazatti wouldn't have gotten away with a 'discharge' ;-))).

Guy

[jipe]

Personnaly, I hate that new rule for RF final as I also hated the top gun.

This has nothing to do with shooting (and surely nothing to do with precision shooting), it becomes a kind of circus like TV show.

I hated seeing the disappointed shooters leaving the range just because of one weaker shot.

Also the final result is almost meaningless, they can as well choose the winner using a casino roulette !

[gn303]

Just an idea:
Why don't we, ISSF minded shooters, write to ISSF to show them our (dis)approval.
We may complain and regret as much as we want among us, but it is in Munich they have to hear it.
I'm not sure this will help, but you never know!

Guy

[Richard H]

Jipe you must hate air rifle then because people don't make it the final at all because of one misplaced shot.

It's still shooting it's added pressure, like they say every shot matters now it really does.

What I find interesting is the people who don't like have not and most likely will never be in a WC Cup final. When you talk to the top athletes that routinely in finals some really like it at worse they are indifferent and don't care.

It's change and many people hate change.

[jipe]

It is different from rifle qualification: in qualification only full points are counted, no difference between a 10.0 and 10.9 while in the top gun pointed are counted in tenth's.

So, if a shooter has a weak point = 0.1 difference in the first shot, he is eliminated while 0.1 almost doesn't mean anything, it is almost the accuracy limit of the pistol+pellets.

In current finals, the scores are added and you can hope that these small differences are averaged. Yes, I know, in some finals, the difference was only 0.1 but it doesn't happen often and anyway, it doesn't change the ranking that much (one place up or down) while in top gun like competition, a 0.1 difference in the first shot gives a totaly different ranking than the same score a couple of shots later: example imagine a guy with all his shots at 10.9 excepted one which is a 10.0 (or even lower, I know it is an extreme example), in top gun final if he shoots first the 10.0 he has a big chance to be eliminated at the first shot have the last place, if he shot the 10.0 in the last shot he is at least second, in current finals, the sequence of shots doesn't change anything.

Since any shooter makes small score differences and the shot when it happens can totally change the ranking, the final ranking with top gun finals becomes an almost pure random results. For me, ranking means that the best shooter gets the first place, not that the lucky shooter wins the first price as in a lottery.

What I also don't like in top gun is the instruction given to the people watching the top gun final to make as much noise/distraction as possible, this makes it look like a TV reality show !

[Richard H]

Jipe unfortunately to leave everything as it was or is will most likely lead to the death of the sport. Even countries that embrace target shooting such as Germany don't have the participation it once had. The new rules might or might not be the answer but I think most agree things need to change. I really don't think the new rules will bring viewers in droves, but it might retain what we have and bring a few more.

I'm often critical of the ISSF but I give them kudos for attempting to make things more interest, the content on the web site, ISSF TV which keeps getting better, their iPhone app. I really give them credit for trying. Personally I think the things they are doing are more apt to bring success than making a blinder 30mm.

I for one really enjoyed the top gun match lots of drama and excitement. You may call it a reality show well it is a reality show, and reality shows are pretty successful so if that is meant as a slight I think it misses the mark. Encouraging fans to cheer and actually enjoy themselves is not new to most sports and even shooting events like Budesliga have encouraged that for years. The crowd becomes an element just as it does in other sports.

[jipe]

I looked at the new RF pistol final on ISSF TV, and if the goal was to make it more attractive for TV, personnaly I found it boring !

Two reasons:
- Each shooter shoot his 5 shots alone -> before to come to the first elimination (4 series) you need to wait to see 6 shooters * 4 series = 24 series. Since most of the time is spent between the shots (series are of course very short but shooters need some time to get ready), it really becomes annoying. Why, at least, not let two sooters shoot simultaneously ? You do not miss anything if a splitted screen picture is used with the two shooters appearing simultaneously. It would divide the time by two. The total time of the final was very long, probably too long to appear on TV.
- due to the elimination, what is often said that "anything can happen" like in usual final where the last shot often decides for the medals, is not valid anymore: eliminated shooters cannot come back even if there was only a single point difference. Due to that, in the last series, there is limited interest since few shooters remain in competition.

This is my perception of the new final format but may be also of other people: I saw several people attending the final doing something else (playing with their mobile, Christian Reitz giving an interview...) instead of looking at the shooters.

[Grzegorz G.]

Just saw the interview of Mr. Anderson who favors the new finals to get more shooters to the RF.
I was curious to see the finals...and I'm disappointed.
This is a step back!
Btw. What happened to Mazetti? He had a pistol/ammo incident, DISCHARGED (?) the gun and then the judges came to check? Is that the normal procedure?
I thought you had to hold the gun downrange until the judges came to check and/or give you other instructions.

Simple, he had already 4 pts. (lost 5th - malfunction) so it would be stupid (in the frame of new final rules) to repeat a serie :-) He was smart!

[Sparks]

And confirmed:

ISSF Rule Changes - Letter from the ISSF

The ISSF Executive Committee and Administrative Council approved rule changes which will be valid starting from the 1st of January 2011, and which will govern the conduct of the 2011 and 2012 ISSF Championships and of the 2012 Olympic Games.



Dear Friends,

We are sending this special communication to inform you of some important ISSF rule changes that will be implemented on 1st January 2011. These changes concern the presentation of finalists before Finals begin and the Rapid-Fire Pistol Men event. Most of you may already have seen our ISSF Newsletter announcement of these changes (27.10.10). You may also have had an opportunity to look at the ISSF-TV final round videos from the 2010 World Cup Final in Munich in October 2010 (http://www.issf-sports.org/tvplayer.aspx) where these changes were tested. These changes were developed in cooperation with the IOC Olympic Broadcast System (OBS) staff that cooperated with the ISSF to evaluate OBS television productions during the 2008 Olympic Games. The OBS Director, Mr. Manolo Romero, invited ISSF Officials to participate in a special workshop with his staff in Madrid in November 2009. During this meeting the ISSF identified several changes that the shooting sport needs to make in order to address challenges in the conduct of our Finals.

In addition, the ISSF received several comments from IOC members, Member Federation Officials and ISSF Officials during the World Championships in Munich and the Youth Olympic Games in Singapore urging the ISSF to improve the Rapid-Fire Pistol Final because the present system is neither very attractive nor media friendly. It is very important for the shooting sport and especially for the future of the Rapid-Fire Pistol Event to cooperate with the IOC in developing improved final round presentations and events. Olympic sports today are dynamic and changing; the sports that will advance and grow are the sports that are best adapted to the modern media and electronic age; it is important for shooting to also adopt changes to improve its presentation and image and to make its events more media and spectator friendly. We of course know that any change means hard work and intensive training for our shooters and coaches, but we know that we can count on their cooperation in implementing these changes for the benefit of our shooting sport.

The final round presentation and Rapid-Fire Pistol final round changes that were developed after our meetings with the IOC OBS were then discussed with many shooters and coaches from member federations and major tests were conducted in February and August 2010. A revised version was presented to participants in the World Cup Final in Munich. This important test received many positive reactions as well as some proposals for changes. The ISSF took these proposals seriously and incorporated several of them in the final version of the rules that were presented for approval to the ISSF Executive Committee and Administrative Council that met in Acapulco, Mexico on 7-8 November 2010. Both bodies discussed these proposed changes in great detail. The Executive Committee unanimously approved them and the Administrative Council accepted them with only one dissenting vote. These new rules will become effective on 1 January 2011 and will govern the conduct of the 2011 and 2012 ISSF Championships and of course the 2012 Olympic Games. Finally, we would like to express our concern about a circular letter and survey expressing opposition to these changes that was distributed to all ISSF Member Federations without the knowledge or approval of either the ISSF President, Executive Committee or Administrative Council. This letter unfortunately asked ISSF Members Federations to respond without giving them any information about the changes and it asked that replies be sent to a non-ISSF email address. The ISSF has, however, discussed these changes with many federations and they all expressed very positive views regarding the changes in final round presentations and the Rapid-Fire Pistol Final.

To give you a full explanation of the changes, we are linking a document titled Summary of ISSF Rules Changes Approved by the ISSF Administrative Council, To be Valid from 1 January 2011. You will receive complete official rules and regulations very soon.

In addition, the ISSF is planning to organize a demonstration competition for the new Rapid-Fire Pistol Final that will help athletes, coaches, Range Officers and Judges prepare for the new final before the 2011 World Cups begin. You will receive an invitation soon. Further, the ISSF is offering our Continental Shooting Confederations any support they may require to organize further demonstration competitions.

The ISSF looks forward to having more exciting Finals next year as a result of these changes. We are very confident that these changes will enhance the image of a very active and innovative shooting sport and that these changes will aid in the promotion of our sport worldwide.

With best regards,

Sincerely yours,
Olegario Vázquez Raña
(ISSF President)

Horst G. Schreiber
(ISSF Secretary General)

[David Levene]

Here's the link to the summary of the rule changes

Point 10 of the Rapid Fire Finals changes is interesting.

[David M]

This new finals format took 40min in Munich on electronic targets.
I wonder how long it will take on a paper target range, and even the best way to do it on paper ?

[ghostrip]

i don't think its doable on paper targets. the scoring process would take too much and plus it would need new targets with the 9.7 zone printed.

[TonyT UK]

The President of the European Shooting Confederation isn't happy.

http://www.esc-shooting.org/index.php/u ... -president

[Tycho]

And right he is. It's not actually my problem, my RF days are behind me, but the new format is a ridiculous attempt to introduce the falling plate system with electronic targets. Never mind that a lot of people only have paper targets to practice. They killed RF in 2004, and this is only rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[j-team]

They killed RF in 2004, and this is only rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

That sums up the situation perfectly.

[David Levene]

They killed RF in 2004..............

Changed, yes. Killed, I don't see that.

Maybe the change was not a total success in resuscitating an ailing event but I can't see where it's in a much worse state than it previously was.

[esc]

Dear friends of the shooting sport!
Dear sportsmen, coaches and who is interested in the shooting!

It is time to discuss openly the problems of the shooting community.
Changing rules of Olympic discipline in the middle of Olympic cycle reflects the trends within the ISSF, which makes decisions behind closed doors.

Below is the letter from the President of ESC to the President of ISSF as well as the link from the ESC Official web-site “Rule changes Forum” where you could see the full version of correspondence regarding the changes of Rules and you could leave or share your comments: http://www.esc-shooting.org/index.php/u ... -president

We need to hear your opinion. For sure such questions should have an open discussion. The changes are needed but they must touch not only technical aspects of shooting but also the relations inside ISSF.

[JamesH]

Maybe RF should just be replaced by Mens Sport Pistol, or Centrefire, then it would be comparable with Ladies Sport Pistol and the ranges and procedures would be identical, range space would be much more efficiently used.

Rapid is obscure - so few people shoot it, Free is obscure, Air is reasonably popular but we want to continue with cartridge events.

The only shooting matches with any spectator interest seem to be Biathlon and Clays.