Question for Eric U and trainers

[Albert B]

Hello Eric and other shooters/coaches/trainers. On behalf of a Dutch medical team trying to set up a national knowledge-center for shooting I want to ask the following question:
In the Netherlands the Dutch shooting Association has aprox 30.000 members, including all types of shooting disciplines. We have only a handful of serious match-shooters.
We are looking for specific physical properties/demands a shooter must aquire to become a top level shooter, and how to work on these subjects. Do any of you know of such a list or do you know anyone (organisation or person) or a source that can give us more info on this subject?
Any input is apreciated.

Thanks,
Albert B
The Netherlands

[Eric U]

Albert,

I don't know of any list of physical characteristics that are required to be a good shooter. I don't have a list of mental characteristics either, but I'd guess they are more important that physical ones.

Eric U

[Charlotte]

As an average shooter with aspirations, I think, as Eric stated already, that mental is more important than physical and the mental characteristics that come to my mind are a love of shooting, romancing the idea of extreme marksmanship, desire, and a competitive mentality.
Competetive shooting is mentally intense and a deficit in any of the areas I mentioned will wash you out.

[Albert B]

We agree that every person is different, but we are trying to establish the basic or main characteristics that a theoretical "ideal" shooter in a certain discipline must have from a medical point of view.
For Olympic rifle/pistol one must have stamina/endurance, be able to concentrate for a specific time, not to much muscles but enough, etc. etc.
For biathlon the characteristics will be different, for clay shooting there will be other main characteristics. But what are all these characteristics and how much is needed for each of them?
When all these basics are known they (a group of Dutch physisians working with the Dutch shooting association) want to set up some sort of training program for (I guess) the national team and developing shooters.
Any input, thoughts and info is greatly apreciated.

Albert B
(The Netherlands)

[RobStubbs]

I would suggest the most important attribute is their desire to learn, improve and train. You can be the most gifted 'natural' shooter in the world but if you do not want to listen to your coach and train to improve then you will go nowhere. Physical attributes depend to some extend on the discipline you're shooting but physical fitness is obviously a good one to possess or have a desire to acheive. People sometimes say shooting doesn't need physical fitness but that isn't true.

Rob.

[Albert B]

Rob, I agree. As you say some physical fitness is nessecary, but what parts of the body, how much and how much is to much? Strength is another topic, same questions. There must be a (theoretical) amount for all characteristics involved. We want shooters with enough muscle but not to much, enough endurence, but not to much or to little. Enough balance, flexibility etc. etc.

It is the theoretical ideal combination of all these characteristics we are looking for. Once you know the ideal combination you can develop a theoretical perfect training plan.
Agree??

Albert

[justadude]

Albert

Briefly, I shot smallbore and air rifle extensively in the 1970s into the mid '80s, occasionally at the national level, then maintained some presence in the sport for a few years after that. I am now getting back to it focused on Prone and Air Rifle.

At one time there was some effort in the US to quantify exactly what you are asking about. I have a few thoughts and names but would rather not post them in a public forum. I would just PM you but your post does not have that button. You can contact me by traditional e-mail

nwdhgvwcdl "at" yahoo.com

Cheers,
'Dude

[yana]

Intrested in yr efforts Albert, as I'm dutch too, and a Basic Trainer as well.
I do think that any general program can only do só much, as each individual is different. Has a different body, with different characteristics, strengths and weaknesses.
Only a person specific program can really pay off imho.
Also, some characteristics, if not many, can be learned or worked on. Only a few are unchangeable/hard to change.
Strength, flexibility, all trainable. Allthough, ofcourse, some are better /faster than others. Sometimes even without training.
Also, there are always exceptions. Some people shoot amazingly, while you wouldnt give them a penny if you didnt see their results yrself! ;)
What you need for 1 is talent. No matter what yr body/mind characteristics are. If you have zero talent, than no body/mental work will get you into the olympics so to speak. Imo anyway. Body/mental work will make you bétter but cant do miracles.

We have little serious match(top) shooters, but dont think thats due to lacking mental/physical things. We dont recognise/built top-shooters-to-be
enough in holland. Not enough guidance/training for young shooters, who are thé shooters of the future. But programs for them are almost non-existent. England for instance has much more youth programs.

[2650 Plus]

I would recommend approaching your most sucessful coach,assembling your top shooters ,and maybe one sports trainer into a cadre to examine the issues you have raised.You may be surprised when you find shooters that have advanced beyond the knowledge of your coach. Coaches usually work on correcting error paterns while your best shooters are probable working on repeatable best performance techniques. Good Shooting Bill Horton

[BJ]

Albert B,

I have been doing a lot of research on the physical training needs/aspects of precision rifle shooting. If you are interested, I have written an in depth paper on the subject that I would be more than willing to share with you. Send me a PM and I can send you the paper to review.

Brian

[Albert B]

HAllo Yana,
what club are you a member of? I shoot at De Vrijheid in Haarlem. I work with Ria van Rooyen and Dick van Zuijlen, who are associated with the KNSA and who are starting several research projects to raise the Duch shooting to high(er) international level.
Perhaps you can have a look at my site www.Schutterssupport.nl (Dutch language) It is full of info on smallbore and airrifle shooting.

Albert B

[yana]

Hi Albert, I'm a member of SV Flakkee, half hour south of Rdam.
I'm still looking for upgrading my Trainership Basic to Trainer A.(will do it in the future)
Its a pitty that the trainings are far away (Arnhem, Bemmel, etc).
I díd follow 2 trainer courses in the UK as well. I'm also a BASC FT coach and a BASC airgun coach. I'll have a look at yr site

[yana]

Just had a quick look at yr site. Looks very good! Very informative, lots of info. Looks up2date as well! Dont you do pistol shooting? Only rifle?

[EJ]

Albert B,

I have been doing a lot of research on the physical training needs/aspects of precision rifle shooting. If you are interested, I have written an in depth paper on the subject that I would be more than willing to share with you. Send me an email at bajohn10@gmail.com and I can send you the paper to review.

Brian

Are you published anywhere? I would love to read it!

/EJ

[EJ]

I don´t have a list in mind but would suggest try talking to the bigger sports centra around the world. Germany/China for example. I followed a physical training plan before that was graded for skill level in different exercises. How they came up with it I don´t know or how much knowledge layes behind.
I assume you are talking about stats like 1,5 BWx5 in deadlift and 10k on 40 min (not suggesting that is ideal). I have numbers in my head to what I believe is basic strength that everybody should perform but no real foundation in shooting science because I haven´t seen any.
And then the mental side of it. Tricky to measure what skills require work and what doesn´t without working out and validating a questionnaire. Possible though.

It is definitely the way to go. Find out an ideal plan and goals then find where the individual fits and start from there. Like all good plans there should be space for individual changes due to everyone being different.



A question: what is too much muscles? (I know "too" refers to something that is already over the top but when does that happen?)






BTW talent doesn´t exist. No such variable can be found in research.

/EJ

[Guest]

"BTW talent doesn´t exist. No such variable can be found in research"

I am assuming you are joking when you write this. In case you are not, then I would have too say that you have never looked at any research studies of any kind.

Dennis

[Rover]

Just to stir the pot a little, I've heard it said that a desirable physical attribute for a pistol shooter is a short, stocky build. Two such that I know are Arnie Vitarbo and Steve Reiter.

[EJ]

"BTW talent doesn´t exist. No such variable can be found in research"

I am assuming you are joking when you write this. In case you are not, then I would have too say that you have never looked at any research studies of any kind.

Dennis

Sorry, there might be a translation mistake on my part here, but what I mean by talent is someone who is good at a sport without putting the work in.
For everyday speaking this definition works fine but for research it doesn´t.

For talent to be a variable it has to be measurable, and how do you measure it?
Talent is more an aggregate consisting of several different skills which an individual can have in varying degrees. Those skills can be measured (hold=trace lenght, stress control=number of coping skills or heart rate stability) and evaluated. The sum of all those skills equals to an individual´s skill, or talent if you like. But in this case the talent itself has not been measured.

But if you have seen research where talent is used as an individual variable feel free to post the links, I´m interested. thanks.
/EJ

[RobStubbs]

I would recommend approaching your most sucessful coach,assembling your top shooters ,and maybe one sports trainer into a cadre to examine the issues you have raised.You may be surprised when you find shooters that have advanced beyond the knowledge of your coach. Coaches usually work on correcting error paterns while your best shooters are probable working on repeatable best performance techniques. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Whilst you will encounter shooters that have exceeded their coaches abilities coaches are not, or should not, be limiting. By that I mean coaches should strive to work on perfecting and improving their shooters. That is subtly different to error correction, which I would suggest is just one, small facet of a coaches skillset.

That's a saying that goes something like 'study your errors and you will be an expert in them' and the same applies to coaches.

Rob.