1907 vs 1913 prone
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1907 vs 1913 prone
I shoot prone with my 1907 and am wondering if the deeper forestock is a negative for shooting prone since the barrel sits so much higher above the left hand (right hand shooter). The 1907 stock seems less popular than the 1913 and I'm wondering if the lack of popularity is more about the stock than the reduced weight.
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Guest
Hello Charlotte,
I agree the 1907 stock isn't ideal for prone, having been built to conform to the old UIT Standard rifle rules, one size fits all approach to 3-P shooting. I've seen some very good scores shot with 1907s (and 1807s, 1407s etc), but personally I find the more shallow fore-end of the Supermatches more comfortable, not to mention the cheekpeice and buttplate (I'm thinking of older 1907s here which required spacer blocks to raise the cheekpeice, or lengthen the butt).
Simply the deepr fore-end of the 1907 forces many shooters to compromise between not having the position too high, and getting a good forearm angle. Obviously smaller shooters (especially the women required to use Standard rifles in UIT competitions) suffer more than taller shooters. A slim fore-end lets smaller shooters have the barrle at the right height, without the forearm being too low; this is one of the big selling points of metal stocks.
An alernative to a 1913 would be a 1912, same adjustments but a slightly smaller stock.
yours
Tim S
Taunton
UK
I agree the 1907 stock isn't ideal for prone, having been built to conform to the old UIT Standard rifle rules, one size fits all approach to 3-P shooting. I've seen some very good scores shot with 1907s (and 1807s, 1407s etc), but personally I find the more shallow fore-end of the Supermatches more comfortable, not to mention the cheekpeice and buttplate (I'm thinking of older 1907s here which required spacer blocks to raise the cheekpeice, or lengthen the butt).
Simply the deepr fore-end of the 1907 forces many shooters to compromise between not having the position too high, and getting a good forearm angle. Obviously smaller shooters (especially the women required to use Standard rifles in UIT competitions) suffer more than taller shooters. A slim fore-end lets smaller shooters have the barrle at the right height, without the forearm being too low; this is one of the big selling points of metal stocks.
An alernative to a 1913 would be a 1912, same adjustments but a slightly smaller stock.
yours
Tim S
Taunton
UK
Charlotte ... I agree w/Tim. I'm not a fan of the 1907 stock.
Most of my smallbore shooters who are women use a 1912 wooden stock ... one uses a 1913 (a pound more than the '12)... the idea of the narrow metal stock is a good one, but it's about as heavy as the 1913.
You can shorten the BBL & put an extension tube on it to get the sights back out too.
Off the shelf, for a gal ... I really like the 1912.
Most of my smallbore shooters who are women use a 1912 wooden stock ... one uses a 1913 (a pound more than the '12)... the idea of the narrow metal stock is a good one, but it's about as heavy as the 1913.
You can shorten the BBL & put an extension tube on it to get the sights back out too.
Off the shelf, for a gal ... I really like the 1912.
Thanks guys. I'll keep my eyes open for a used 1913 stock. I'm 5'10" so I think the larger stock may fit me better. I like the angular cheekpiece on my 1907 and the way I can tilt it gives me an easily repeatable cheekweld. I don't plan on making the switch until after this season is over, so I've got time to find something.
Charlotte,
There are pluses and minuses to any solution.
The point brought up regarding the deep fore end creating a low arm angle and difficulties having the barrel low enough to be comfortable while the postion is still legal is very valid.
You mention that you are 5'!0", at that height I wonder if your arm is not already far enough out on the foreend taper so that at the point where your hand is the foreend thickness is about the same as the 1913 stock.
There are some other considerations as well, are you only shooting prone or some postion as well? If you are shooting position do you get plenty of time between matches or stages to change ALL the settings on a 1913? Many years ago I shot in a "rattle battle" league, 3-P, 30 shots, 36 minutes where I found the best solution was to leave the free rifle at home and bring the standard rifle (a 1407) as adjustments from one stage to the next were WAY quicker. Clearly aspects of the setup were a compromise from one positon to the next but it worked well for the situation.
There are also some aspects of experience level. You sound like you have been doing this a while so you should be able to deal with the complexity of all the adjustments but I am a big fan of the standard rifle for newer shooters. OK the dimensions might not be perfect but they are generic enough to fit most people well and you can't get some adjustment so far out of whack that there is no chance of building a good position. (I have seen this with new shooters with too much money and too little experience they get a new free rifle assuming that is what they need to shoot better and it does not work, in fact it often hurts the situation.)
If you are really shooting only prone adjusting a 1907 is more cumbersome than a 1913 but you can get the cheek and butt of the 1907 exactly where you need them and be. (I have made plenty of spacers and other little gizmos to get my standard rifles and prone rifles just exactly how I want them.) Now the same goes for a 1913/12. If you are shooting one postion only you can get the sucker exactly tweaked to where you want everything much more easily than a 1907 then just leave it.
As has been noted the 1912 is a fine solution. Especially if you already have a 1907 all you would need is the 1913 stock, bolt your barrel in and presto you have a 1912 to go shooting. There is no difference in inherent accuracy between light and heavy barrels. If you decide you need more weight it is easy to add. Then with the coin you save you can buy more bullets! : )
I personally am at that point in life where I am considering taking one of my old standard rifle barrels and putting in into my prone gun stock as I have some bone problems in the left hand and a little less pressure might be a fine thing.
Good Luck
'Dude
There are pluses and minuses to any solution.
The point brought up regarding the deep fore end creating a low arm angle and difficulties having the barrel low enough to be comfortable while the postion is still legal is very valid.
You mention that you are 5'!0", at that height I wonder if your arm is not already far enough out on the foreend taper so that at the point where your hand is the foreend thickness is about the same as the 1913 stock.
There are some other considerations as well, are you only shooting prone or some postion as well? If you are shooting position do you get plenty of time between matches or stages to change ALL the settings on a 1913? Many years ago I shot in a "rattle battle" league, 3-P, 30 shots, 36 minutes where I found the best solution was to leave the free rifle at home and bring the standard rifle (a 1407) as adjustments from one stage to the next were WAY quicker. Clearly aspects of the setup were a compromise from one positon to the next but it worked well for the situation.
There are also some aspects of experience level. You sound like you have been doing this a while so you should be able to deal with the complexity of all the adjustments but I am a big fan of the standard rifle for newer shooters. OK the dimensions might not be perfect but they are generic enough to fit most people well and you can't get some adjustment so far out of whack that there is no chance of building a good position. (I have seen this with new shooters with too much money and too little experience they get a new free rifle assuming that is what they need to shoot better and it does not work, in fact it often hurts the situation.)
If you are really shooting only prone adjusting a 1907 is more cumbersome than a 1913 but you can get the cheek and butt of the 1907 exactly where you need them and be. (I have made plenty of spacers and other little gizmos to get my standard rifles and prone rifles just exactly how I want them.) Now the same goes for a 1913/12. If you are shooting one postion only you can get the sucker exactly tweaked to where you want everything much more easily than a 1907 then just leave it.
As has been noted the 1912 is a fine solution. Especially if you already have a 1907 all you would need is the 1913 stock, bolt your barrel in and presto you have a 1912 to go shooting. There is no difference in inherent accuracy between light and heavy barrels. If you decide you need more weight it is easy to add. Then with the coin you save you can buy more bullets! : )
I personally am at that point in life where I am considering taking one of my old standard rifle barrels and putting in into my prone gun stock as I have some bone problems in the left hand and a little less pressure might be a fine thing.
Good Luck
'Dude
Dude,
I feel like watching The Big Lebowski again.lol!
Thanks for the response. I do shoot only prone with this rifle and have only been shooting prone for about 3 years. I tend to hash this stuff out for a while before doing anything and I really like the cheek piece and the ease of adjustment while in position. I can't really afford to buy another stock immediately so I'll be living with the standard stock for a while.
I got the 1907 because of the weight. I shot a heavier 1411 for a few months and couldn't handle the weight, though it may have been the stock and buttplate that made it unmanageable for me. Having recently shot my first master level score I'm just thinking about improving my equipment.
I feel like watching The Big Lebowski again.lol!
Thanks for the response. I do shoot only prone with this rifle and have only been shooting prone for about 3 years. I tend to hash this stuff out for a while before doing anything and I really like the cheek piece and the ease of adjustment while in position. I can't really afford to buy another stock immediately so I'll be living with the standard stock for a while.
I got the 1907 because of the weight. I shot a heavier 1411 for a few months and couldn't handle the weight, though it may have been the stock and buttplate that made it unmanageable for me. Having recently shot my first master level score I'm just thinking about improving my equipment.
Check out the poster of Matt Emmons in one of the Anschutz July newsletters accessable on its website or the photos of Emmons taken at the World Championships this month accessable on the ISSF website - 50m prone men. Emmons is using the latest Anschutz metal stock with a wooden block underneath his left hand that is almost underneath the action. He apparently wants as upright a position as possible. Mike Barron
Charlotte,
I had to go look up the reference to "Big Lebowski", the fellow there was "The Dude" while I am "Just a Dude" so you are probably safe.
Out of curiosity I did some measuring today. I took my 1978 vintage 1411 stock and a 79 vintage 1413 stock. The depth of the foreend measured from the base of the barrel channel to the ceiling of the foreend rail channel, 1411=1.240 inches, 1413=1.205 inches. For width the 1411=2.310 inches, 1413=2.290 inches. Bottom line, for all intents and purposes the forend of the two stock is the same.
The big and obvious difference between the 1411 and 1413 is the butt end of the stock. The 1411 has a fixed and longer butt than any position rifle. For a man (with wider shoulders than most women) this is not a problem. For women with the narrower shoulders the extra length can push the center of gravity of the rifle further out onto the sling arm, causing problems. Using an xx13 stock you can shorten the butt some, (still paying attention to right arm angle and eye relief) and bring some of the weight of the rifle back into the body.
The other post mentioned Matt Emmons and the position diagnostic poster. While no one can dispute Matt's abilities as a shooter I will point out that he has an unusually high prone position. For a larger sample set check out the ISSF website for pictures and video of men and women in the prone finals. First, there are no xx11 stocks being used by the elite prone shooters. Most of them are shooting aluminum stocks which may or may not be helpful. Eric Uptagrafft is shooting a wodden xx13 stock and may be a good starting point to see how he has his setup. (Keeping in mind the discussion about inherent shoulder width differences between genders.)
Most of the top prone shooters seem to be setup with their noses right up to the back of the action and hook butt plates set well up so the centerline of the barrel runs back into the central part of the shoulder.
While not important to this discussion, Eric uses an Anschutz stock he does not use and Anschutz action.
Cheers,
'Dude
I had to go look up the reference to "Big Lebowski", the fellow there was "The Dude" while I am "Just a Dude" so you are probably safe.
Out of curiosity I did some measuring today. I took my 1978 vintage 1411 stock and a 79 vintage 1413 stock. The depth of the foreend measured from the base of the barrel channel to the ceiling of the foreend rail channel, 1411=1.240 inches, 1413=1.205 inches. For width the 1411=2.310 inches, 1413=2.290 inches. Bottom line, for all intents and purposes the forend of the two stock is the same.
The big and obvious difference between the 1411 and 1413 is the butt end of the stock. The 1411 has a fixed and longer butt than any position rifle. For a man (with wider shoulders than most women) this is not a problem. For women with the narrower shoulders the extra length can push the center of gravity of the rifle further out onto the sling arm, causing problems. Using an xx13 stock you can shorten the butt some, (still paying attention to right arm angle and eye relief) and bring some of the weight of the rifle back into the body.
The other post mentioned Matt Emmons and the position diagnostic poster. While no one can dispute Matt's abilities as a shooter I will point out that he has an unusually high prone position. For a larger sample set check out the ISSF website for pictures and video of men and women in the prone finals. First, there are no xx11 stocks being used by the elite prone shooters. Most of them are shooting aluminum stocks which may or may not be helpful. Eric Uptagrafft is shooting a wodden xx13 stock and may be a good starting point to see how he has his setup. (Keeping in mind the discussion about inherent shoulder width differences between genders.)
Most of the top prone shooters seem to be setup with their noses right up to the back of the action and hook butt plates set well up so the centerline of the barrel runs back into the central part of the shoulder.
While not important to this discussion, Eric uses an Anschutz stock he does not use and Anschutz action.
Cheers,
'Dude
Living in Georgia, I've had the opportunity to shoot with Eric several times and fwiw, he machined his own action and has a Kreiger barrel.
I have had a tendency to be too low in prone and moved my handstop back and shortened my sling for practice yesterday and today and it looks promising to have a higher position.
It was like you said on the 1411 that the rifle was too front heavy for me because of the lop.
I have had a tendency to be too low in prone and moved my handstop back and shortened my sling for practice yesterday and today and it looks promising to have a higher position.
It was like you said on the 1411 that the rifle was too front heavy for me because of the lop.
Hi Charlotte,
I am tinkering with my own stock situation and was reflecting on this thread from a few weeks back. Seems you were debating a stock change for your 1907 and you were pretty certain the xx11 was not it.
It has been some time since I shot competitively but am getting back to it. I started by working with my trusty 1411. Good rifle but does not lend itself to recent changes in style of prone position. Had a 1413 stock available, good stock, I was never crazy about the hook.
Recently got a MEC hook, tried that on the 1411, no fun. Looking at putting that on the 1413, I have yet to shoot it but noticed some other interesting differences.
I took these pictures with the stocks laying on a carpet that looks like a football field. This makes it easy to see the front edge of the pistol grips are even.
First picture, with both stocks ready to receive the hook it is interesting how much I have to extent the 1413 butt carrier (a little over an inch) if I want it to be the same length as the 1411.
Second picture, same thing, close up
This gives you an idea of how much shorter you can get the xx13 stock
Third and Forth picture, next intersting discovery, the action on the xx13 is set back about 3/4 inch from the xx11. From years of messing with these guys I knew the grips were different but never tumbled to the fact that the action on the xx13 was further back.
This just gives an idea of how much further back the weight will be. Takes pressure off the left hand.
While you seemed pretty settled on saving for a xx13 stock this might give you some idea of what you can look forward to.
Cheers,
'Dude
I am tinkering with my own stock situation and was reflecting on this thread from a few weeks back. Seems you were debating a stock change for your 1907 and you were pretty certain the xx11 was not it.
It has been some time since I shot competitively but am getting back to it. I started by working with my trusty 1411. Good rifle but does not lend itself to recent changes in style of prone position. Had a 1413 stock available, good stock, I was never crazy about the hook.
Recently got a MEC hook, tried that on the 1411, no fun. Looking at putting that on the 1413, I have yet to shoot it but noticed some other interesting differences.
I took these pictures with the stocks laying on a carpet that looks like a football field. This makes it easy to see the front edge of the pistol grips are even.
First picture, with both stocks ready to receive the hook it is interesting how much I have to extent the 1413 butt carrier (a little over an inch) if I want it to be the same length as the 1411.
Second picture, same thing, close up
This gives you an idea of how much shorter you can get the xx13 stock
Third and Forth picture, next intersting discovery, the action on the xx13 is set back about 3/4 inch from the xx11. From years of messing with these guys I knew the grips were different but never tumbled to the fact that the action on the xx13 was further back.
This just gives an idea of how much further back the weight will be. Takes pressure off the left hand.
While you seemed pretty settled on saving for a xx13 stock this might give you some idea of what you can look forward to.
Cheers,
'Dude
- Attachments
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- Actions even, grips offset
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- Grips even, action offset
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- Close up of butt difference, grips even
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- Overview, grips even note extension required to make xx13 stock same length as xx11