need help with pain in left hand while shooting prone

[snipewench]

Hi Everyone!

First post here.

I've been shooting prone since March, and love the challenge. I too had pain in my hand and wrist during shooting.

I've found that, as my position improved, and I became more aware of it, and the pain points, they've almost disappeared, to the point now where I can set up and fall asleep whilst waiting for the range to open.

Initially, I had lots of pain in my wrist as the rifle was trying to twist my left hand back towards my body - I had the handstop up near the first joints on my fingers. Move the handstop right into the crook of my thumb and hand, and the pain disappeared - but slowly, as I became more and more tuned to the position.

I can dismount the rifle from off my shoulder, and it sits parallel to the ground resting on the bulk of my hand like it's resting on a benchrest.

Like the others have said here, my forehand often goes to sleep, but I recognise that, dismount the rifle, and take a few moments to get feeling back into it again. Sometimes, though, I disconnect the rifle from the sling, stand up, shake out my hands and arms, do some exercises to promote blood flow, then get back down and continue on shooting.

I think the forearm/wrist/hand going to sleep problem is also symptomatic of how tightly the sling is around the bicep. The major artery going down the arm is often constricted by the sling, so this may be one of your problems.

Cheers!

[robf]

When I am getting into position I am putting my hand right up against the handstop, so yes this is where all of the force (weight?) is at. As far as the position of the sling it comes down and around below my wrist which causes another problem..it digs into my the back of my forearm and I have quite a bit of pain there too.... and I am wearing a Ghemann shooting vest and then my shooting jacket. This is why I had to undo the sling and move the buckle away from back of my hand..it helped but the sling is still digging in there too.

So what you are saying is dont have the hand right up into the stop.. I thought I needed to do this so that the hand ends up ALWAYS at the same position and it is consistent from shot to shot??

The other end of my sling is as far up the arm as I can get it.. above the bicept.

Oscar

try setting up your position without a sling or handstop. Then see what that tells you. Make sure when assembling the position the body is relaxed and balanced. Quite a few times I've seen shooters reassemble their position around what they have learnt to do, even when kit is taken away. Once the position is built properly, there's often a bit of a wake up call.

Having things too tight is quite a common mistake.

No position should cause pain. If it does, stop. Seek expert advice. It's very easy to cause an injury which could become very sensitive.

[oscaro]

[quote="
I found that having a single thickness of sling also helped - like the Centra Sling which is great but pricey. I butchered my Thune sling to achieve the same result. A single thickness doesn't generate the same torsion.[/quote]

Is this the sling you are talking about?
http://www.edinkillie.co.uk/ecatalog/ce ... ml?cPath=9

Thanks for the idea!!

Oscar

[RobStubbs]

It sounds to me like you have a positional problem. Yes prone shooting will give you discomfort in your left hand but it should not be overly painful, certainly not in a short space of time. If it does then you need to correct your position. The stock should be supported across the heel of the hand and not at the base of the thumb joint. The handstop should not be so tight as to create pain there - if it is it also suggests the handstop is too bit, within reason you want as small a handstop as possible. If the handstop is really tight then look at moving it out and adding a little to the sling length. Remember if it is really tight, you'll be pulling the gun out of the shoulder and geting a looser butt / shoulder connection, which will affect the shot.

Rob.

[Roodaddy600]

Actually the rifle should be resting across the base of your thumb, to get the rifle across the heel of your hand you will have to have your wrist twisted in such a manner that is would be painful itself as well as counter productive. With your wrist straight the rifle will fit right across the base of your thumb down to the meaty part of it. There will be pain in prone. Plain and simple. I hurt, Eric hurts, Mike Mcphail hurts, and even the great Tom Tamas hurt when he shot prone. Its part of the game.

Shane

[BartP]

I haven' read every response on this post, so I may be repeating some info.

I found that there are three major reasons for hand pain/discomfort in prone. Here's how I minimized the pain.

1) I tried every damn handstop there was and settled on the smallest disc-type stop. Reason being - I can put my hand into position and instead of having the full weight of the gun adding strain to the space between my thumb and forefinger, I was able to pull my hand back just slightly and let the pressure of the sling around my hand PIN the hand in place (against the bottom of the stock) just BEHIND the stop. That eliminated the normal hand pain to a great extent and allowed me to shoot from the same position longer and steadier.

2) Rifle position on the Hand: While I was experimenting with the handstops, I dropped Matt E. a line and asked about hand position. Like Shane Roo says, the rifle HAS GOT TO BE over the base of the thumb NOT through the hand. With the gun over the lower thumb meat, the wrist can stay straight and it keeps overall discomfort to a minimum.

3) Wrist pain. The sling drops down under your hand and wraps around your wrist - either high or low position. If you watch the ISSF videos, you will see differences - but mostly high and low versions. Depending on your hand length, the sling can cut a nasty line and be very painful. I found that MY JACKET was the culprit early on. If the doubled material around the cuff is directly under the sling along the back of the wrist, you are asking for big pain. The nerves that enter the hand do so from a single pathway on the back of the wrist then branch out to the fingers. So this what I do: I get into position then reach around the bottom side of my wrist, and haul down on that cuff. The cuff slides down at a slight angle and out from under the sling itself. The rest of the cuff that stayed in place (directly behind that ill-placed wrist bone) catches the stress and actually serves to alleviate pressure on that boney protrusion.

And like Shane says...Pain is part of the game.
Hope that helps someone. Bart

[RobStubbs]

Actually the rifle should be resting across the base of your thumb, to get the rifle across the heel of your hand you will have to have your wrist twisted in such a manner that is would be painful itself as well as counter productive. With your wrist straight the rifle will fit right across the base of your thumb down to the meaty part of it. There will be pain in prone. Plain and simple. I hurt, Eric hurts, Mike Mcphail hurts, and even the great Tom Tamas hurt when he shot prone. Its part of the game.

Shane

No it should not be resting across the thumb. The rifle should be off the base of the thumb, just enough such that's it's clear of it and not pushing on the thumb, the rifle then sits across to the right hand side of the heel of the hand, and it shouldn't be twisted. Pain isn't clever, and the position doesn't have to be painful, if you get it right. Yes you will experience a bit of discomfort and the hand may go a little numb after a while, but lots of pain means you just need to work on your position properly to solve it. It can be a matter of making very small changes but the position can be made a fair bit more comfortable.

Rob.

[betterthanu]

Did you learn how to shoot prone and where the rifle goes while shooting your air pistol??? I agree with Shane and Bart. But you seem to have an opinion on all this stuff. I guess it's true what they say about opinions...

[BartP]

Rob,

Although your posts are interesting at times, you clearly have a lack of knowledge in this department OR you haven't shot a 60 shot prone match in a hundred years. Your contention/suggestion is so wrong that it makes me shake my head in disbelief. I hope you are coaching pistol shooters and not prone shooter. Geeeeeezus! Pain is a frickin' given in prone.

You do know that you are talking to the best shooters in the United States, right? Shane is our current national prone champion and Eric U and Mike M are ranked 1-2 in the world. You know this...right? Whew. Bart

[RobStubbs]

Rob,

Although your posts are interesting at times, you clearly have a lack of knowledge in this department OR you haven't shot a 60 shot prone match in a hundred years. Your contention/suggestion is so wrong that it makes me shake my head in disbelief. I hope you are coaching pistol shooters and not prone shooter. Geeeeeezus! Pain is a frickin' given in prone.

You do know that you are talking to the best shooters in the United States, right? Shane is our current national prone champion and Eric U and Mike M are ranked 1-2 in the world. You know this...right? Whew. Bart

You clearly don't know as much about prone as you think you do, it's also a shame that you're unwilling to listen to comments from other people who are trying to help other posters with problems.

I coach prone but I will be the first to admit I'm not vastly experienced at coaching it. I do however work alongside a very experienced rifle coach and the squad we coach includes some very high (elite) level shooters.

The way we approach the position is that we observe the shooters, look at their position and talk to them about how both their inner and outer position feels. If they experience significant pain we look for obvious pressure points or features of their position that could be accounting for it.

We will most likely run the shooters through a session on the scatt before making any changes. After small changes are made to the position, sling, hand-stop etc, we will run them through scatt again, and evaluate the data, paying close attention to the indicators of stability etc.

Now it will probably take a fair amount of time and effort from the shooters and the coaches to get a position which is both more comfortable and at least as solid, although ideally more solid. And it could take a few sessions to build up that position again.

They key point however is that working through things in a methodical manner and evaluating the changes, I've yet to see a shooter who hasn't benefitted in getting a better and more comfortable position.

Regards,

Rob.

[Spencer]

... Eric U and Mike M are ranked 1-2 in the world. You know this...right? Whew. Bart

not to denigrate their skill and performance, but are they in the top 3?: refer http://www.issf-sports.org/results/worl ... e_men.ashx

[betterthanu]

ISSF ranking is updated on the 1st of each month, so no, they aren't in the top 3 now, but were yesterday. I suppose the top ten list might be more helpful http://www.issf-sports.org/results/worl ... n_men.ashx. So...if you would rather get help from Sergei, Val, or Matt (those that are ranked higher than Eric U and Mike M), I guess you'll have to ask them in person since I've never seen them on this board trying to help anyone.

Rob, please name the elite level rifle shooters that you coach. I've got a feeling that you really just like to hear yourself type. Maybe you know something about pistol shooting, but clearly your grasp of rifle equipment and positions is lacking. The problem with boards like this is that new shooters don't know the difference between BS and useful information. I've got to throw the BS flag here. Inner and outer position? Are you Chet Skinner reincarnated in England?

[BGC]

Oscaro,
I hope you will find an advice at this forum that will help you.

I used to have pain in my wrist, which simply came from an unnatural angle of the wrist (to much force by a tight sling).
My own solution was to;
- move the handstop forward 1 inch (or so)
- loosening the sling a little.

Still, don't be afraid to go your own way. We are all individuals, and therefore, there are no such things as abolute "right" or "wrong" ways.
Most times, you are your own best coach.

If coaches from the US would see a (in my eyes odd) position like this, I'm sure they would try to change it. But in Russia/Belarus, it is clearly a winning style making Martynov World Champion - AGAIN.

:)

[BartP]

My only beef with Rob is that when you read his words it sounds like he is saying you can ELIMINATE pain in the prone position. Which is simply not true. You can adjust to it over time to the point where it is simply acceptable, but it exists never the less. My knowledge of prone shooting is established, Rob. You need to look up some scores over here. They tell the story.

With some respect to Rob, it IS very important to constantly monitor your inner and outer position. It is the key to shooting near-perfect scores. Many times over the past couple of years, it has been the elimination of small balance issues and tension build ups that have improved my scores from the 580s to the mid 590s. That and better ammo.

But we aren't really talking about anything but the pain factor here on this thread. And pain, like it or not - exists on some level when you are shooting prone. You can have the weirdest position in the world (like Brian's photo), but it is NOT going to eliminate the pain.

So Rob, until YOU decide to do this type of shooting yourself...it might be wise to address the subjects/posts you have personal, first-hand knowledge of.

Bart Parnall

[robf]

Coaching of shooters of different levels requires different advice. Just because the top shots do it, doesn't mean it's applicable to non top shots.

Top scores don't qualify you as a coach, nor do they elevate you from potential improvement by one.

Qualification to give advice is particularly important on this particular matter, if anything for liability reasons, and because a qualified coach should be aware of the safety of the advice.

Elite shooters may elect to do permanent damage to themselves in order to achieve their goals. But that's because they should have made their decision by exploring the alternatives and their impact on performance.

Quite frankly, it doesn't surprise me that a top shot should denigrate basic coach advice, but then i suppose if you're playing the numbers game, a cattle prod is sometimes all you need, and if you're not up to it, then the next one might be.

I wonder at what point you will stop to ask if there is any injury involved that could be contributing. Think about what your saying. Or else stick your money where your mouth is and issue a liability for damages form for your advice. Got a shooter here with a broken wrist and an empty wallet. ;_)

[Guest]

Come on guys don’t let this get personal. This has been a good thread so far like the thread on eye relief which resulted in a deeper understanding for me and changes in my set-up. I appreciate it when top shooters and coaches contribute to these discussions.

As for my penny’s worth; I was always taught since I was a junior that the wrist must be straight and the rifle pass over the base of the thumb, not the thumb itself. As soon as I finished prone my coach would check where the red mark from the weight of the rifle was on my hand.

Looking at the photos in “The ways of the rifle” they show the rifle resting over the base of the thumb. Also Anschutz posted Tips from Matt Emmons (
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/download ... ns_d_e.pdf) which show his hand position. I wish there were more photos of top shooters like this.

[Guest]

Is this the sling you are talking about?
http://www.edinkillie.co.uk/ecatalog/ce ... ml?cPath=9

Thanks for the idea!!

Oscar

Hi Oscar,
yes, that's the one. I'll try and post a photo of how I modified my sling.

By heel of the hand, I do mean the base of the thumb in the area of the Scaphoid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carpus.png so that all the weight is transferred directly through the wrist to the Radius. If the rifle is resting across that palm too much weight goes onto the Ulna, the wrist will twist and injury will occur if repeated.

Keeping the wrist straight is easier if you have a sloping forend to your stock. If you have a flat forend then I think a little bending of the wrist is required to get the rifle resting correctly.

The sling position is also crucial - too high and it will prevent the wrist from bending sufficiently to allow the rifle to make adequate contact in the Scaphoid area. This will result on the weight being carried by the fleshy part of the hand between the Scaphoid and the web between thumb and index finger.

Interesting to see the Anschutz Tips with Matt using the handstop that I rejected... But then it is an Anschutz sponsored thing.

Prone shooting is and exercise in pain management but it IS possible to get it down to a level that doesn't distract you from performing/enjoying yourself. The right gear can help - and anything you can do to lose weight in front of the handstop would help too.

I'm going to try take some close up photo's over the next couple of days (without glove & jacket) to see if I can clarify my suggestions.

Regards,
Ken.

[Guest]

I'll try and post a photo of how I modified my sling.
Regards,
Ken.

[Guest]

Here's what my left hand was like when I was suffering from all MY left hand pain:



High sling, big gap between the stock and the base of the thumb - all the weight on the soft tissue at the front of the hand.

Not helped by a handstop that pinches however it's set up:





With a lower sling the stock rests firmly on the base of the thumb:



and I find this handstop is more comfortable:



Allowing a left hand like this:




THIS IS TO BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS:



That's what is working for me anyhow.

K.

[Guest]

Thanks for posting the pictures - they are quite helpful!