Hi all,
I've been using RWS Target Rifle ammo for quite some time now. After around ~1,500 rounds between my Savage Mk II and Anschutz 1907 I haven't had any problem. I've even gotten into the top 3 at some local events using it. About a month and a half ago, I decided to try some of the RWS Match Rifle. I bought a 100 round test lot and was greatly disappointed. From a bench at 50 yards, the crap wouldn't group for anything.
My thing is that I'm fairly loyal to RWS but I'm not going to practice with R50 or R100. Target Rifle simply isn't going to take me beyond local shoots and I thought Match Rifle was the logical choice.
What I am wondering is: should I give Match Rifle another shot, or should I go with another brand? I had good experiences with Lapua Center-X, but it's a bit more expensive. Center-X warms up my barrel much quicker than the RWS. What should I do?
Trouble with RWS Match Rifle ammo
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Re: Trouble with RWS Match Rifle ammo
My 1913 doesn't particularly like Target Rifle either, but will shoot Match Rifle and R50 with almost no change of impact or loss in accuracy (at least with the lots I have).weilers wrote:My thing is that I'm fairly loyal to RWS but I'm not going to practice with R50 or R100. Target Rifle simply isn't going to take me beyond local shoots and I thought Match Rifle was the logical choice.
I suspect that R50/Match Rifle is made on the same line and everything that doesn't meet the grouping standard for R50 becomes Match Rifle -- but I'm sure someone will set me straight if this isn't true.
Everyone's rifle is unique, and will prefer different lots of ammo to others. This often means ammo from the same manufacturer and even from different machines.
The typical answer to your question is try as many different lots and brands as you can get your hands on, and expect each rifle to like something different.
Jason
It must have been at least a month since we had one of these threads.
You're making the mistake of thinking that all ammo is equal just because it has the same label on, or that ammo is better because it costs a bit more.
Put simply it's (probably) not the ammo, and it's not the rifles. It's that ammo in that rifle.
Depending on a whole host of factors (including but not limited to barrel length, twist ratio, barrel weight, etc), there will be an ideal muzzle velocity for your rifle that allows the bullet to stabilise most effectively as it exits the barrel. This will vary from rifle to rifle - even between two seemingly identical rifles that have come off the line together, because there will inevitably be slight, barely detectable differences in the machining, metal composition, and the tools will be ever so slightly more worn after cutting the first barrel, so will be different for the second. Furthermore, it will change over time as the barrel, chamber and crown wear.
I'm told the late, great Bert Brookes of Eley reckoned the results of a batch-test were good for 5,000 rounds.
Your ideal batch probably wouldn't shoot badly after that (if you bought 10k say), but the barrel will probably have changed enough that it will be second or third choice (which is not saying much as it's usually a bit of a judgement call to sort out the finallists). But when you're paying £8/box for Tenex, you want the best, considering it only costs £40 or so to visit Eley's customer range (obviously less easy if you live in the States).
Target ammunition like RWS and Eley is deliberately made to travel at a variety of different speeds so you can find one that best matches your rifle or pistol.
If you look at a box of Eley, underneath the batch number there will be a 4 digit number, running from the low 1000s, up to around 1070. That's the mean muzzle speed for that batch in feet per second from Eley's test rigs. Pick up five different batches of ammo, and they will probably all have different speeds stamped on them.
The batch of Target Rifle you picked up probably (by chance) matched your gun reasonably well. The Match Rifle is probably a batch that doesn't stabilise properly out of your rifle - too fast or slow for the twist rate, barrel length, etc, etc.
Matching ammo to rifle is called "batch testing". Essentially you put the rifle in a clamp, and shoot groups with a range of different batches, selecting the one that performs best in your rifle. The difference between a well-matched batch and a poorly-matched batch is astounding. I say well/poorly matched, and not good or bad, because the batch is not neccesarily bad just because it doesn't go well in your rifle. It may well go down a treat in someone else's.
Eley Tenex, Match and Team all start out trying to be Tenex - they are made in the Tenex Loading Room (which is amazing! I've had the privilege of going in). They are then tested for their mean speed and the standard deviation, etc. The best is labelled Tenex, and less consistent batches get downgraded to Match, Team or eventually junk.
Theoretically, Tenex is better than Match or Team. However, if I took a batch of Team that matched my rifle, and a batch of Tenex which really didn't, then the Team would probably outshoot the Tenex, because it's grouping better out the rifle, even if it's less consistent from round to round.
Obviously if you took a selected Team batch and a selected Tenex batch, the Tenex should easily out shoot the Team.
So, it's probably not the ammo quality, just the ammo choice. Have a look on your boxes, and see if you can find a speed stamped on somewhere. What are the speeds of the RWS Target Rifle ammo you've been shooting, and the Match Rifle ammo? I would bet folding money that they are not the same.
Since the Target Rifle has been shooting well, see if you can get other brands around the same speed as whatever that is. They'll likely shoot well.
Getting a load of different speed ammo and doing a bench-testing session is always a useful experience. When you go to your dealer, you can make an informed decision if they have more than one batch in stock as to which one is most worth buying.
Or it could just be a duff batch of Match Rifle. Unlikely, but these things can happen.
You're making the mistake of thinking that all ammo is equal just because it has the same label on, or that ammo is better because it costs a bit more.
Put simply it's (probably) not the ammo, and it's not the rifles. It's that ammo in that rifle.
Depending on a whole host of factors (including but not limited to barrel length, twist ratio, barrel weight, etc), there will be an ideal muzzle velocity for your rifle that allows the bullet to stabilise most effectively as it exits the barrel. This will vary from rifle to rifle - even between two seemingly identical rifles that have come off the line together, because there will inevitably be slight, barely detectable differences in the machining, metal composition, and the tools will be ever so slightly more worn after cutting the first barrel, so will be different for the second. Furthermore, it will change over time as the barrel, chamber and crown wear.
I'm told the late, great Bert Brookes of Eley reckoned the results of a batch-test were good for 5,000 rounds.
Your ideal batch probably wouldn't shoot badly after that (if you bought 10k say), but the barrel will probably have changed enough that it will be second or third choice (which is not saying much as it's usually a bit of a judgement call to sort out the finallists). But when you're paying £8/box for Tenex, you want the best, considering it only costs £40 or so to visit Eley's customer range (obviously less easy if you live in the States).
Target ammunition like RWS and Eley is deliberately made to travel at a variety of different speeds so you can find one that best matches your rifle or pistol.
If you look at a box of Eley, underneath the batch number there will be a 4 digit number, running from the low 1000s, up to around 1070. That's the mean muzzle speed for that batch in feet per second from Eley's test rigs. Pick up five different batches of ammo, and they will probably all have different speeds stamped on them.
The batch of Target Rifle you picked up probably (by chance) matched your gun reasonably well. The Match Rifle is probably a batch that doesn't stabilise properly out of your rifle - too fast or slow for the twist rate, barrel length, etc, etc.
Matching ammo to rifle is called "batch testing". Essentially you put the rifle in a clamp, and shoot groups with a range of different batches, selecting the one that performs best in your rifle. The difference between a well-matched batch and a poorly-matched batch is astounding. I say well/poorly matched, and not good or bad, because the batch is not neccesarily bad just because it doesn't go well in your rifle. It may well go down a treat in someone else's.
Eley Tenex, Match and Team all start out trying to be Tenex - they are made in the Tenex Loading Room (which is amazing! I've had the privilege of going in). They are then tested for their mean speed and the standard deviation, etc. The best is labelled Tenex, and less consistent batches get downgraded to Match, Team or eventually junk.
Theoretically, Tenex is better than Match or Team. However, if I took a batch of Team that matched my rifle, and a batch of Tenex which really didn't, then the Team would probably outshoot the Tenex, because it's grouping better out the rifle, even if it's less consistent from round to round.
Obviously if you took a selected Team batch and a selected Tenex batch, the Tenex should easily out shoot the Team.
So, it's probably not the ammo quality, just the ammo choice. Have a look on your boxes, and see if you can find a speed stamped on somewhere. What are the speeds of the RWS Target Rifle ammo you've been shooting, and the Match Rifle ammo? I would bet folding money that they are not the same.
Since the Target Rifle has been shooting well, see if you can get other brands around the same speed as whatever that is. They'll likely shoot well.
Getting a load of different speed ammo and doing a bench-testing session is always a useful experience. When you go to your dealer, you can make an informed decision if they have more than one batch in stock as to which one is most worth buying.
Or it could just be a duff batch of Match Rifle. Unlikely, but these things can happen.
-
Antipentium
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:21 am