In a windy change what do you prefer? shading or waiting?
matt
shading or waiting?
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Freepistol
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Waiting if I have suffecient time left on the clock, other wise I shade and pray. Good Shooting Bill Horton
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Guest
Matt-
If you do decide to do some shade-training, you can really get a head start if you try it on an electronic trainer first. Being able to see how far off you are holding with a specific site picture will give you some good feedback before you send a bunch of expensive bullets down range.
Like Bill Horton says - shade only in desperate times - until you master the skill. and it takes a while to master!
Bp
If you do decide to do some shade-training, you can really get a head start if you try it on an electronic trainer first. Being able to see how far off you are holding with a specific site picture will give you some good feedback before you send a bunch of expensive bullets down range.
Like Bill Horton says - shade only in desperate times - until you master the skill. and it takes a while to master!
Bp
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Jose Rossy
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- Location: Troy, Ohio, USA
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Eric U
I shade unless the wind is doing something VERY extreme. I'm not afraid to point a 9.5 when I need to (of course, I've been shading for nearly 30 years). I prefer to keep my shading withing the 10 ring, but that is not always possible. When I was in Belgrade last week, on the elimination day of prone the wind was switching with big changes. The big changes would stay around for 4-5 minutes, but the wind would change velocity a bit from within the two different big changes. I picked two conditions...one pretty strong from the right and one just a little bit from the left, and clicked between the two. I would then shade for minor corrections. It still took me over 65 minutes to shoot my match, while my "normal" is less than 35 minutes. There are many more times when it is good to be able to shoot a match quickly than if you take your time. It takes time to wait for minor wind changes.
Eric U
Eric U
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Albert B
shading with ring insert how?
Eric,
as you have given much insight lately into your way of ammo testing, here is another question.
I understand the basics and the neccesity of shading, but what system do you use? Do you place the ring insert off-centre in the iris-opening and if so how do you judge the amount the offset must be (a very small offset is hardly vissible).
Or do you use another system?
Thanks,
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
as you have given much insight lately into your way of ammo testing, here is another question.
I understand the basics and the neccesity of shading, but what system do you use? Do you place the ring insert off-centre in the iris-opening and if so how do you judge the amount the offset must be (a very small offset is hardly vissible).
Or do you use another system?
Thanks,
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
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Eric U
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "Do you place the ring insert off-centre in the iris-opening"?
I keep the front sight centered in the rear aperature always. If you don't do that, you are changing your cheek pressure...and that is bad. I just aim the rifle a little high left or low right, as necessary.
Eric U
I keep the front sight centered in the rear aperature always. If you don't do that, you are changing your cheek pressure...and that is bad. I just aim the rifle a little high left or low right, as necessary.
Eric U
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Albert B
Sorry Eric,
you are right. I was typing the question while at work so I was a bit hasty and didn't think properly. My question should have been:
As the target and the ring of light between front insert and target looks very small when aiming, how much must the minimum deviation caused by the wind be?
The smallest visable offset of the insert over the target must result in a large deviation at the target. Is it possible to properly see and make this very small offset without over-compensating? Or do you open up the diameter of the iris? (When the inside of the insert nears the target, the light that passes the inside of the ring-insert is bent and causes a spot of light covering that point of the target; you think there is space between insert and target while in reality the insert 'touches' the target already).
Sorry for not putting the question more clearly, but sometimes it is a bit difficult for me to find the right words although reading is no problem for me.
Thanks,
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
you are right. I was typing the question while at work so I was a bit hasty and didn't think properly. My question should have been:
As the target and the ring of light between front insert and target looks very small when aiming, how much must the minimum deviation caused by the wind be?
The smallest visable offset of the insert over the target must result in a large deviation at the target. Is it possible to properly see and make this very small offset without over-compensating? Or do you open up the diameter of the iris? (When the inside of the insert nears the target, the light that passes the inside of the ring-insert is bent and causes a spot of light covering that point of the target; you think there is space between insert and target while in reality the insert 'touches' the target already).
Sorry for not putting the question more clearly, but sometimes it is a bit difficult for me to find the right words although reading is no problem for me.
Thanks,
Albert B
(The Netherlands)
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Eric U
You might be using too small of a front aperature. I have no problem shading with mine, and still have plenty of light between the target and the ring in the front sight aperature. To me it is pretty easy to tell the difference between shooting a good center shot, and pointing a 10.2 or so. Realistically I think I can shade to within .2 of where I'm aiming. The larger the amount of the shade, the greater the chances of making a mistake (usually elevation).
In my opinion there are two major requirements to shading well:
1. You need a good shooting gun
2. You need an exceptional hold
If you don't have a good shooting gun, how can you tell if the shot went where you tried to shoot it? If your hold isn't very good, there isn't much point in shading...you've got bigger troubles. Some days I shade better than others, and I attribute that to how good my hold is that day.
Eric
In my opinion there are two major requirements to shading well:
1. You need a good shooting gun
2. You need an exceptional hold
If you don't have a good shooting gun, how can you tell if the shot went where you tried to shoot it? If your hold isn't very good, there isn't much point in shading...you've got bigger troubles. Some days I shade better than others, and I attribute that to how good my hold is that day.
Eric
Hey Dlinden,
I use the metric 50 meter target on the noptel to practice shading. As Eric mentions above, you need to establish a sight picture (aperture size) that allows you to definitively discern an actual 'shade'. Light conditions at different ranges force you to adjust aperture size anyway. You have fired a number of matches on our range here in Charleston. You know that the morning light is awful and doesn't actually shine directly on the target until the afternoon. My morning setting is at least a 4.35-4.4. By 2 o'clock, i have to reduce it to 4.2 or less.
In my opinion, accurate shading is a skill that is acquired over a long time. I have a couple of juniors that I am training who I have been quietly measuring along the way. We have been working MORE with the mental side of shading to see what kind of results we get. Instead of actually holding off the bull in a major way - I've had them start by THINKING about what their hold would look like if they were truly needing to shoot a shot that requires shading. Essentially, I have them visualize the 10 hold sitting off center at either 10 or 4 - then firing the shot with that image in their minds - still visualizing an X for the result through their follow thru. It works very well. A good start and an excellent way to show them that their minds are a powerful factor.
I'm pretty sure guys like Eric can hold a 10.6+ on every shot - prob even on a bad day. His experience allows him to hold off at a .2 - .4 difference when he wants to. The rest of us need to understand that our control isn't as defined as his own and that merely THINKING about the shading in one direction or the other is going to produce some results. Keep in mind that he is talking about a 1cm 10 ring. WE are talking about NOVICE shading and keeping it in the 10 ring. A slow gradual start to learning the process might be better served by 'willing' the shot to go where you want it to. As you grow more comfortable with THAT skill, you can start moving into the hard-hold with an offset sight picture as your hold grows more steady over time.
Bartp
I use the metric 50 meter target on the noptel to practice shading. As Eric mentions above, you need to establish a sight picture (aperture size) that allows you to definitively discern an actual 'shade'. Light conditions at different ranges force you to adjust aperture size anyway. You have fired a number of matches on our range here in Charleston. You know that the morning light is awful and doesn't actually shine directly on the target until the afternoon. My morning setting is at least a 4.35-4.4. By 2 o'clock, i have to reduce it to 4.2 or less.
In my opinion, accurate shading is a skill that is acquired over a long time. I have a couple of juniors that I am training who I have been quietly measuring along the way. We have been working MORE with the mental side of shading to see what kind of results we get. Instead of actually holding off the bull in a major way - I've had them start by THINKING about what their hold would look like if they were truly needing to shoot a shot that requires shading. Essentially, I have them visualize the 10 hold sitting off center at either 10 or 4 - then firing the shot with that image in their minds - still visualizing an X for the result through their follow thru. It works very well. A good start and an excellent way to show them that their minds are a powerful factor.
I'm pretty sure guys like Eric can hold a 10.6+ on every shot - prob even on a bad day. His experience allows him to hold off at a .2 - .4 difference when he wants to. The rest of us need to understand that our control isn't as defined as his own and that merely THINKING about the shading in one direction or the other is going to produce some results. Keep in mind that he is talking about a 1cm 10 ring. WE are talking about NOVICE shading and keeping it in the 10 ring. A slow gradual start to learning the process might be better served by 'willing' the shot to go where you want it to. As you grow more comfortable with THAT skill, you can start moving into the hard-hold with an offset sight picture as your hold grows more steady over time.
Bartp
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Albert B
Thank you Eric.
Although my question was not well formulated, it resulted in some intersting info from you and others.
If it is possible to shade witin 0.2 points (1.6mm) your hold must be steadier than the Mount Everest!
Just curious: for how long can you maintain that steady hold;a few seconds or longer? And how much movement is created by your heartbeat?
Albert B
Although my question was not well formulated, it resulted in some intersting info from you and others.
If it is possible to shade witin 0.2 points (1.6mm) your hold must be steadier than the Mount Everest!
Just curious: for how long can you maintain that steady hold;a few seconds or longer? And how much movement is created by your heartbeat?
Albert B
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Eric U
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Albert B
shading exercise?
Now that is established that shading can be done within 0.2 points, how do we train for that kind of shooting? Who knows ways and/or exercises to train our hold/aiming/and eyes for that?
I am always willing to learn........
By the way, a deveation of 1.6mm at the target equals 0.022mm at the muzzle!
Albert B
I am always willing to learn........
By the way, a deveation of 1.6mm at the target equals 0.022mm at the muzzle!
Albert B